Electric Cars are the way of the Future
Posted 02-03-2009 at 02:35 PM by rbgrn
Tags electric cars
Major news keeps buzzing about Hydrogen, Flex-fuel, E85/Ethanol, Bio-Diesel and other alternative energies but when it comes down to it, I believe that only the least common denominator will be able to survive in a world of constantly changing energy sources and that thing is called electricity.
Does anyone remember natural gas lighting in houses? How about oil? They were once a big hit, just like our oil-based engines in our cars are today. They went away for one simple reason. It's easier to convert many sources from many locations into electricity and distribute via wiring than it is to try to have competing fossil-fuel based systems in different houses. I believe the current paradigm of personal transportation is much like this.
The only big problem with electric vehicles themselves today is the cost of a high-capacity battery. It's not like they don't exist, they certainly do, but with a price tag of $50k to get a pack that will haul the car 150 miles, it's not exactly something most can afford. That is not to say that they won't be affordable in the next 5 years. Battery technology specifically has been moving at such a rapid rate that I wouldn't be surprised if that same pack were halved every 2 years, leaving it at around 10 thousand dollars in 5 years from now.
What's stopping us then? Well, for one, power distribution and the great american road trip. Charging a 200kwh pack in 5 minutes will take some serious juice, no doubt. Think 3-inch cables for that one. It isn't to say that it can't be done or that it's the only way to get there. A 1L, 3-cyl turbo diesel/bio generator would be able to sustain a 80mph cruise for a 3200lb vehicle. At that point, you're only limited by the size of the gas tank, which is the same situation as today. These are planned to be added to a few 2010 model hybrids and they should be available in some form to DIY EVers.
In the US, at least, the national power grid would most certainly be saturated if 100 million electric vehicles were on the road today. I don't think it's any cause for alarm, though. Somehow we put the infrastructure in to move how many billion gallons of gas per year in place since 1950? It can be done, and I'll tell you one thing about the electricity distribution companies - if demand is there, they'll put the infrastructure in place.
I believe EVs will become the primary personal transport not because of any political beliefs I have but because of what I call the LCD (Least Common Denominator) factor. The gist of it is that all forms of energy can be converted into electricity, but not all forms of energy are interchangable. I certainly can't fill up a diesel engine with hydrogen and if the world runs out of both Oil and Corn, well, my flex fuel vehicle isn't going to go very far. On the flip side, there will always be wind, running water, temperature differences, fusable atoms, the sun (so long as I'm alive, at least), and many other sources for generating electricity. It appears to be the least common denominator.
It only makes sense that we would make the move to the most pervasive form of energy we have which would allow for real competition in the market place and peace of mind knowing that we're not totally dependent on any one source.
Does anyone remember natural gas lighting in houses? How about oil? They were once a big hit, just like our oil-based engines in our cars are today. They went away for one simple reason. It's easier to convert many sources from many locations into electricity and distribute via wiring than it is to try to have competing fossil-fuel based systems in different houses. I believe the current paradigm of personal transportation is much like this.
The only big problem with electric vehicles themselves today is the cost of a high-capacity battery. It's not like they don't exist, they certainly do, but with a price tag of $50k to get a pack that will haul the car 150 miles, it's not exactly something most can afford. That is not to say that they won't be affordable in the next 5 years. Battery technology specifically has been moving at such a rapid rate that I wouldn't be surprised if that same pack were halved every 2 years, leaving it at around 10 thousand dollars in 5 years from now.
What's stopping us then? Well, for one, power distribution and the great american road trip. Charging a 200kwh pack in 5 minutes will take some serious juice, no doubt. Think 3-inch cables for that one. It isn't to say that it can't be done or that it's the only way to get there. A 1L, 3-cyl turbo diesel/bio generator would be able to sustain a 80mph cruise for a 3200lb vehicle. At that point, you're only limited by the size of the gas tank, which is the same situation as today. These are planned to be added to a few 2010 model hybrids and they should be available in some form to DIY EVers.
In the US, at least, the national power grid would most certainly be saturated if 100 million electric vehicles were on the road today. I don't think it's any cause for alarm, though. Somehow we put the infrastructure in to move how many billion gallons of gas per year in place since 1950? It can be done, and I'll tell you one thing about the electricity distribution companies - if demand is there, they'll put the infrastructure in place.
I believe EVs will become the primary personal transport not because of any political beliefs I have but because of what I call the LCD (Least Common Denominator) factor. The gist of it is that all forms of energy can be converted into electricity, but not all forms of energy are interchangable. I certainly can't fill up a diesel engine with hydrogen and if the world runs out of both Oil and Corn, well, my flex fuel vehicle isn't going to go very far. On the flip side, there will always be wind, running water, temperature differences, fusable atoms, the sun (so long as I'm alive, at least), and many other sources for generating electricity. It appears to be the least common denominator.
It only makes sense that we would make the move to the most pervasive form of energy we have which would allow for real competition in the market place and peace of mind knowing that we're not totally dependent on any one source.
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Total Comments 43
Comments
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But until electrics enter a race smack in the face of a gas car , it'll never be a real threat . No dis-respect , but until you have the hot rodders your just spitting in the wind .......at nobody .Posted 07-30-2008 at 08:21 PM by epyon 
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Hmmm..Quote:Originally Posted by epyon
But until electrics enter a race smack in the face of a gas car , it'll never be a real threat . No dis-respect , but until you have the hot rodders your just spitting in the wind .......at nobody .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp_jwE0KdOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3THU...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32E4...eature=relatedPosted 07-31-2008 at 05:26 AM by paker
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Quote:Originally Posted by epyon
But until electrics enter a race smack in the face of a gas car , it'll never be a real threat . No dis-respect , but until you have the hot rodders your just spitting in the wind .......at nobody .
One word. NEDRA. Beating the pants off of unsuspecting ICE racers since 1998 (officially).
Posted 07-31-2008 at 10:05 AM by TX_Dj
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Despite trying to build my own electric car, I think the world would be better if we all biked/walked/used light rail for inner-city travel and then used high speed rail for inter-city travel. This is for reasons of safety, health, feeling of community, infrastructure costs, density requirements, etc. BUT I don't think that's going to happen to 100% of people this century. So if we need to have cars, they had better be electric.
It is true that you're not doing much good for the environment if you charge your batteries off of electricity produced from coal (or hydrogen for your million dollar fuel cell produced from fossil fuels!). BUT it is much more efficient from electricity than hydrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy) with 86% grid-to-motor efficiency, vs. hydrogen's 25% (it would be better to use nuclear power plants to make hydrogen, but then you have to pipe it, which is a huge problem). Much of the infrastructure already exists for electric cars (a huge plus!) except for charging stations (garages?). True, you would lose some efficiency converting heat to electricity, but renewables would make straight electricity (without requiring water as a heat sink, which is a huge problem in arid places like California!). Furthermore, electric cars will help the rest of the grid become renewable, as energy is very expensive to store. But if everyone had a 15 kWh battery pack, all of a sudden the grid gets a lot of storage space for "free". So plug the car in and when there is excess wind or solar energy (electricity is cheap) your car starts charging, balancing out the grid and enabling more (greater than 20%) of intermittent renewables on the grid without destabilizing everything/requiring massive investment in peaker power plants. Of course we could do the same with hundreds of billions in transmission infrastructure (which we will still have to build part of), but electric cars surely ease that burden!Posted 07-31-2008 at 04:27 PM by kaliforniakarl
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I agree. With the very limited technology of today, it is really impossible to follow your suggestion of biking and/or using light rail for travel. We had gotten too used to cars that people just can't see traveling without them. Electric cars is the best choice we have as for now.Quote:Originally Posted by kaliforniakarl
Despite trying to build my own electric car, I think the world would be better if we all biked/walked/used light rail for inner-city travel and then used high speed rail for inter-city travel. This is for reasons of safety, health, feeling of community, infrastructure costs, density requirements, etc. BUT I don't think that's going to happen to 100% of people this century. So if we need to have cars, they had better be electric.
Posted 08-01-2008 at 04:21 AM by jdgomez
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I just wanted to point out an irony: the "limited" technology of today surely isn't only bikes and light rail, as they both predate cars. And talking about anachronisms, electric cars were around and competitive when the first few combustion engine cars were aroundQuote:Originally Posted by jdgomez
I agree. With the very limited technology of today, it is really impossible to follow your suggestion of biking and/or using light rail for travel. We had gotten too used to cars that people just can't see traveling without them. Electric cars is the best choice we have as for now.
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Posted 08-01-2008 at 08:22 PM by kaliforniakarl
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That is my point , thats nedra not the NHRA , IHRA or even NOPI . There's only the PRO-EV racing against cars in the SCCA seies . Like I said , til you get the hot rodders , it will be a little bit of a long time .
Posted 08-07-2008 at 10:25 PM by epyon
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As I understand it, the NHRA actually allows EVs that conform to NEDRA rules. EVs are beating gassers at the drag strip. EVs are beating gassers in SCCA-sanctioned road racing too. Check out the Electric Imp (electric Subaru Impreza).
Posted 08-07-2008 at 10:39 PM by xrotaryguy
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Quote:Originally Posted by epyon
That is my point , thats nedra not the NHRA , IHRA or even NOPI . There's only the PRO-EV racing against cars in the SCCA seies . Like I said , til you get the hot rodders , it will be a little bit of a long time .
http://www.nedra.com/nedra_handbook.html
Quote:Originally Posted by NEDRA HandbookThe NHRA has incorporated all of NEDRA's rules into their rulebook. Therefore, NEDRA no longer has a separate rulebook.Posted 08-07-2008 at 11:18 PM by TX_Dj
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I fully agree with the principle of this article. I think a step in this direction is a pure electric drivetrain. Whether the power source is a battery pack, ultracapacitor, hydrogen fuel cell, or range extending generator, an electric drivetrain has great merit in all those applications.
I think the ultimate competition will be between affordable and effective battery packs and more efficient production and distribution of hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles. But both have electric drivetrains.
I wish automakers would just take the plunge into all electric drivetrains with vehicles like the Volt but not worry so much about a short electric only range. Some people really wouldn't mind a vehicle the size of an Impala with an engine the size of an Elantra's, an electric only range of 10 miles, and a price tag of $30k. Take it up to $40K, give it three rows, raise it a couple inches, and use wheel hub motors for AWD and you've just owned half the crossover market and half the SUV market. Even if you still have to have a mild V6 as a range extender. Even if your gas mileage is just 30mpg. There are still merits to be gained with an all electric drivetrain and the batteries can catch up.Posted 10-24-2008 at 11:30 AM by ElvishWarrior
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The problem is competent engineers can do that without eletric motors and batteries... 30mpg in a SUV hybrid is and will always be horribly inefficient.Quote:Originally Posted by ElvishWarrior
Even if your gas mileage is just 30mpg. There are still merits to be gained with an all electric drivetrain and the batteries can catch up.
Just making the damn thing have a lower Cd by half (easily acheived with minute styling) could get you 50+mpg with just a standard engine.
Box cars = the problem... even in the sedan market 0.33 cd is not acceptable (or 0.51 like most SUVs have).Posted 10-25-2008 at 12:49 PM by Technologic
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People drive over taking light rail or trains because they don't want to sit in a crowded car with stinky people. That's being nice. Tagger punks also frequent these forms of transportation because they are no longer allowed to drive. I took the light rail to and from work for one year and hated it. Granted I did not have to drive but the type of people were not the ones you'd want to be caught with walking down an alley. Dark or not. Using electric from coal plants is better than nothing and is better than all those dirty untuned gas guzzlers out there polluting our air. For the most part individual vehicles will remain the flavor of the day. I for one promote small but very cool personal transportation and commuters that are electric. I'd love to someday see electric roads. That way we can have plenty of miles and with a pack of batteries we can drive off the main powered roads and get to our homes and places of business. Main roads could be powered. They will power the vehicle and charge your car for when you need to move off the power roads. It can happen. Induction power roads. Drive a slot car. How cool.
Pete : )Posted 10-26-2008 at 01:33 AM by gottdi
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Electric cars are the wave of the future and I want one, but not for $40k Chevy volt aint happening for the masses, not at that price. Why can't GM , Ford, Chysler and the other automakers make a strictly battery car and have a reasonable price? And forget the hydrogen car It's not going to happen either. I would love to ride light rail or a bus to work, but the cost to install them in North Carolina is so prohibitively expensive it will never happen, certainly not in my lifetime. NCDOT says they expect a $60-80 BILLION shortfall in the next 20 years
Posted 11-02-2008 at 07:19 PM by 85bmw528edude
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Don't let G.M off the hook . The EV-1 did it all and now they just want to forget it ever happend . Ford sells a electric Ranger right now . I haven't seen if Dodge is still selling there minivans to fleets only still .
Posted 11-03-2008 at 11:19 PM by epyon
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GM attorneys had most of the leased EV1 transported to the Arizona desert where they where crushed.
GM, Ford, and Chrslyer executives salary should be adjusted to reflect current economic times if they are to get any more US taxpayer money. The same for the losers at AIG,Posted 11-11-2008 at 11:23 AM by TexasCotton
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Quote:Originally Posted by Technologic
The problem is competent engineers can do that without electric motors and batteries... 30mpg in a SUV hybrid is and will always be horribly inefficient.Quote:Originally Posted by Technologic
Just making the damn thing have a lower Cd by half (easily achieved with minute styling) could get you 50+mpg with just a standard engine.
Box cars = the problem... even in the sedan market 0.33 cd is not acceptable (or 0.51 like most SUVs have).
Most things that affect the energy use of a vehicle are dependant on two factors, the weight of the vehicle, and the aerodynamic drag. The aerodynamic drag is made up not just of the Cd but also the frontal area. Your average SUV is a looser on all counts. It is heavy, it has a poor Cd due to its boxy design, large wheels and open wheel wells and it has a large frontal area due to its size and upright design not to mention the inefficient drive train if you add 4wd. Unfortunately some of these things are why people buy them and so are inherent to the type. Weight is a big factor and should not be underestimated. Every time you accelerate a heavier vehicle it takes more energy, every time you increase your elevation (drive up a hill) it takes more energy, and it also plays its part in the rolling resistance of the vehicle increasing that. This factor also forms part of the balancing act electric vehicle converters and designers must play. Adding more batteries means more range but also means more weight which means less efficient use of the energy. Eventually you will get into a diminishing returns situation. The battery energy density is a big consideration in the theoretical limit to the range of an electric vehicle. A large high energy density battery (including battery support systems) and a structurally efficient and aerodynamic chassis are essential to achieving a high range electric vehicle.
There are things in development such as algae-culture that could see liquid fuelled vehicles continue to play a roll into the future by allowing significant volumes of, carbon neutral, water efficient, liquid fuels to be grown with a good energy returned on energy invested balance.
Posted 11-11-2008 at 03:57 PM by John
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The idea of electric interstates is a good one. I shudder to think of the cost, but at one time the idea of paving from sea to shining sea was also thought impossibly expensive. Advances in manufacturing brough the cost down to the point we have almost paved the entire continent. The cost of building an induction charging strip down a freeway should also someday drop. That would eliminate all the the current objections to electric cars. You would only need to carry as much batteries to get from the freeway to home. There is a company that is experimenting with distributed charging. You could recharge while stopped at the stop light, or before entering an onramp.
Posted 11-11-2008 at 07:37 PM by engineer_Bill
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Crazy idea, but it may work. Kinda like throwing a set of jumper cables over a power line beside the road to recharge your ev.
Posted 11-11-2008 at 07:56 PM by HighTech
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China is actually using and testing for a metro electric bus service which uses some sort of underpavement charge or boost for the electric bus. The also use a bus which can go both like the old trolley cars with electric grid and then go off grid
Posted 11-12-2008 at 01:20 PM by TexasCotton
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Had that in Seattle and other places for decades..
Posted 11-12-2008 at 09:41 PM by TX_Dj
