Why I'm not an Environmentalist
Posted 02-03-2009 at 01:17 PM by mattW
Tags environment, green living
My concern for the environment started when earth, fire, wind, water and heart combined to fight the forces of corporate greed and irresponsibility. Yes, Captain Planet was my hero. I’ve had quite a lot of greening influences in my life, from cartoons, to a kid’s solar experimentation kit, to my friend’s parent’s weird composting toilet. I’ve developed quite an awareness of global environment issues, especially to do with energy and I think make a decent effort to change my lifestyle in order to reduce my impact on the world. But I don’t call myself an environmentalist, not in a million years. How can I care about the environment on one hand yet refuse to join the ranks of like minded individuals on the other? The reason is that calling yourself green is about as definitive as calling yourself the world’s best street fighter. Within 24 hours of making such a claim you are almost guaranteed to be in a hospital ward after being well and truly schooled by a Thai underground kick boxing champion, or in this case a vegan Greenpeace activist who lives in a solar powered mound of dirt.
The eco-hypocrite police are the most far reaching, swift and strict global task forces the world has ever seen. Al Gore gives up his political career and devotes his life to try and educate people about climate change and gets slammed for his electricity bill. Sting puts his neck out for the environment and gets stung for his less-than-green Police concerts. The Toyota Prius is one of the most efficient and least polluting cars on the market but is somehow accused of producing acid rain. Call yourself green and you could well have reporters sifting through your garbage for un-optimised recycling practices, or calling you an eco-terrorist because you still eat meat. I’m trying my best to care for the environment; I’ve changed my light bulbs, I fill my recycling bin, I’m even planning on building an electric car to reduce my energy consumption, but I doubt that qualifies me for the elusive title of green. Frankly I think I have better chances going for best street fighter.
Maybe its time we start rewarding people for the positive contributions they have made to the environment rather than digging up dirt on them so we don’t feel as bad about still using toilet paper. The green movement can keep moving forward towards a better earth through spurring each other on. Or we can tear each other apart for not changing our entire lives for the better in one single burst. What do you think? Is there a place for being critical of other people’s green efforts or is it better to just focus on the progress they have made?
The eco-hypocrite police are the most far reaching, swift and strict global task forces the world has ever seen. Al Gore gives up his political career and devotes his life to try and educate people about climate change and gets slammed for his electricity bill. Sting puts his neck out for the environment and gets stung for his less-than-green Police concerts. The Toyota Prius is one of the most efficient and least polluting cars on the market but is somehow accused of producing acid rain. Call yourself green and you could well have reporters sifting through your garbage for un-optimised recycling practices, or calling you an eco-terrorist because you still eat meat. I’m trying my best to care for the environment; I’ve changed my light bulbs, I fill my recycling bin, I’m even planning on building an electric car to reduce my energy consumption, but I doubt that qualifies me for the elusive title of green. Frankly I think I have better chances going for best street fighter.
Maybe its time we start rewarding people for the positive contributions they have made to the environment rather than digging up dirt on them so we don’t feel as bad about still using toilet paper. The green movement can keep moving forward towards a better earth through spurring each other on. Or we can tear each other apart for not changing our entire lives for the better in one single burst. What do you think? Is there a place for being critical of other people’s green efforts or is it better to just focus on the progress they have made?
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Total Comments 165
Comments
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wasn't the highest total world population before 1700s around 100 million people... worldwide?Quote:Originally Posted by piersdad
many ancient civilisations of surprising advancement did not react to local climate changes.
so.... exponential effects would mean... whatever they did is "roughly" 2^20 less severe than our current world.Posted 08-24-2008 at 10:06 PM by Technologic 
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Dude, If climate really get's warmer the sea level will drop...Quote:Originally Posted by piersdad
if climate change raises the sea level then the houses etc built in the future sea bed area will be at least 100 years old and ready for demolution.
Think about a glass FULL of ice, what will happen when all the ice is melted ?
About 3 quater of the glass is full, ice has more volume than water, and when it sit's under water ( like 95% ! of all the iceberg's on the northpole ) then the sea level will drop.
Simple math.
CNN telling you histerical that ''the north pole is melting OMG OMG OMG'' and the sea level will rise is a stinkin LIE.
I live 7 meter UNDER the sea level here in Holland/The Netherlands/Lowlands and the sea is level was at his highest in mid 2006 if I remember correctly, I believe is has dropped 7 cm now.
And CNN isn't telling you that the northpole AND southpole are growing right now. Hypocrite's.
I remember last summer when a ''big'' piece of the Arctic (south pole) was breaking up, 400 square kilometer I believe.
Sounds big he ?
But that part of 400 square kilometer fitted (sorry, don't know the correct word
) to a larger pieces of 6000 square kilometer, and THAT piece of 6000 square kilomter fitted to a pieces of 2 MILLION square kilometer ( or something like that ) in the end it was nothing compered to the big picture of the arctic. A flick with a finger, a drup of water in your glass, nothing.
Be carefull with the ''dangerous'' news they are telling you, it's is all correct, but they don't tell everything, if they would, it would'nt be even news.
Here in Europe the weather sucks, damn cold and wet summer.
And guess what ?
There is no one telling us the climate is getting warmer, once the temprature's go's over 25/30C these guys will show up....
Hope it's gonna be a hell cold winter to finally get rid of these lie'ing self furfulling money taking hippie's.
Bastards they are.
Climate change ? what's new since day one earth's got a climate ?Posted 08-25-2008 at 11:57 AM by The Flying Dutchman
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Actually I'm still trying to find evidence that sea levels are rising. Reports I saw stated that they are on a declining trend since the mid 20th century. I live in a costal community and if the predictions are true of sea levels rising as much as some suggest than I guess I should be scared, but I could also get hit by a bus too so why the panic?
Is Al gore's documentary available online some where? I've been meaning to watch it for a while now but never got around to it. I already saw a slightly older and much less known documentary that disputes the climate change theory.
On a personal note, the last 2 years have been miserably cold, with summer feeling more like a long spring. But in fairness other parts of the country had heat waves, so thats not here or there. 3 years ago summer was nice, really nice, long hot and dry.Posted 08-25-2008 at 05:02 PM by david85
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Why is it when people talk about "global warming" they tend to forget that warmer weather means more evaporation. What does that mean? It means more precipitation in the form of rain and snow which leads to more clouds that blocks the sun and cools the earth, along with what's falling.
Posted 08-25-2008 at 08:04 PM by paker
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Sorry Paker, you're being too simplistic.Quote:Originally Posted by paker
Why is it when people talk about "global warming" they tend to forget that warmer weather means more evaporation. What does that mean? It means more precipitation in the form of rain and snow which leads to more clouds that blocks the sun and cools the earth, along with what's falling.
The problem with global warming isn't the warming. It's the melting of the polar ice, which dilutes the salt water content of the North Atlantic Current.
The stream carries warm equatorial water to the north atlantic (off Scotland) and warms Europe's climate, and gives England it's wet weather.
With Greenland melting, the danger is that the Current will shut down, preventing the warm weather from reaching Europe. We don't know enough about it to tell WHEN it will shut down, but the conditions would be something like a critical salt/fresh water mix threshold being crossed.
So Global warming, droughts, carbon, all those issues aren't really the problem. It doesn't even matter if burning coal and carbon causes warming. The glaciers are melting along with the polar ice caps. The last chunk that broke off Antarctica was the size of Rhode Island, and that polar ice is all fresh water - busily melting and diluting the currents.
That's the reality. What are we doing about it? Arguing about who will pay...
And to the sceptics:
If you live in America, go to the National Archives and look at the declaration of independence. On the wall behind it is a painting of the declaration being presented to Congress. Next to it is a painting of Washington crossing the Delaware River to defeat the British and end the way.
THERE ARE ICEBERGS IN THE RIVER.
That's right. The Delaware River froze in 1851. Not any more. In just 150 years the planet has warmed sufficiently to prevent it happening.
The ice is melting. One day, the North Atlantic Current will shut down. When that happens Europe's summer will become like their winter and their winter will be unlike anything we've experienced.
I live in Australia. We are largely unaffected by the NAC and I'm sure we will welcome the refugees along with places like Mexico, Afghanistan and Africa...
Just check out the SIEV-X first, so you understand our government's attitude towards asylum seekers...
Posted 08-25-2008 at 08:53 PM by jlsawell
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Better check again. The ice displaces the same amount of water, just leaves 10% floating on top. If the whole north pole melted, no change in sea level (the ice is floating). If the Antarctic all melts, it will rise some.Quote:Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman
Dude, If climate really get's warmer the sea level will drop...
Think about a glass FULL of ice, what will happen when all the ice is melted ?
About 3 quater of the glass is full, ice has more volume than water, and when it sit's under water ( like 95% ! of all the iceberg's on the northpole ) then the sea level will drop.
Simple math.
CNN telling you histerical that ''the north pole is melting OMG OMG OMG'' and the sea level will rise is a stinkin LIE.
I live 7 meter UNDER the sea level here in Holland/The Netherlands/Lowlands and the sea is level was at his highest in mid 2006 if I remember correctly, I believe is has dropped 7 cm now.
And CNN isn't telling you that the northpole AND southpole are growing right now. Hypocrite's.
I remember last summer when a ''big'' piece of the Arctic (south pole) was breaking up, 400 square kilometer I believe.
Sounds big he ?
But that part of 400 square kilometer fitted (sorry, don't know the correct word ) to a larger pieces of 6000 square kilometer, and THAT piece of 6000 square kilomter fitted to a pieces of 2 MILLION square kilometer ( or something like that ) in the end it was nothing compered to the big picture of the arctic. A flick with a finger, a drup of water in your glass, nothing.
Be carefull with the ''dangerous'' news they are telling you, it's is all correct, but they don't tell everything, if they would, it would'nt be even news.
Here in Europe the weather sucks, damn cold and wet summer.
And guess what ?
There is no one telling us the climate is getting warmer, once the temprature's go's over 25/30C these guys will show up....
Hope it's gonna be a hell cold winter to finally get rid of these lie'ing self furfulling money taking hippie's.
Bastards they are.
Climate change ? what's new since day one earth's got a climate ?
But, I like the idea of ocean front property near Atlanta and all my Canadian and Russian friends stand to benefit greatly from a 10 degree increase. So, until someone can tell me what the "RIGHT" temperature of the earth is (and convince me of it) this Chicken Little garbage is so much noise.
Oh, latest reports: Temperature for the past 10 years is DOWN slightly...Posted 08-25-2008 at 09:10 PM by PhantomPholly
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I don't think you read my comments properly. Not once did I refer to water LEVEL or TEMPERATURE as the problem. The issue is the salinity of the NAC. Even if they are measuring it, we just don't know what the threshold is for it to shut down.Quote:Originally Posted by PhantomPholly
Better check again. The ice displaces the same amount of water, just leaves 10% floating on top. If the whole north pole melted, no change in sea level (the ice is floating). If the Antarctic all melts, it will rise some.
But, I like the idea of ocean front property near Atlanta and all my Canadian and Russian friends stand to benefit greatly from a 10 degree increase. So, until someone can tell me what the "RIGHT" temperature of the earth is (and convince me of it) this Chicken Little garbage is so much noise.
Oh, latest reports: Temperature for the past 10 years is DOWN slightly...
It's all about the heavier Salty water and the lighter fresh water. As the water evaporates from the North Atlantic and becomes London drizzle, the heavier, more salty water sinks to the bottom and returns to the equator.
Disrupt that balance, and in one season you'll see a different type of winter, because the equatorial warmth will stay in the south.
It will eventually rebalance, as the new ice & snow in the north will suck up some of the fresh water, and gradually the NAC will move further and further north until we get back where we are today.
But please understand... melting ice isn't about temperature or sea levels - it's about the salinity mix in the NAC.
Al Gore presents it pretty well in An Inconvenient Truth.
There's also a story called Bristow On Ice, which I will try to find and post.Posted 08-25-2008 at 09:40 PM by jlsawell
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I'm pretty sure I read you correctly, although you are correct that I wasn't replying to your ENTIRE post. Also keep in mind that some of what I say is tongue in cheek.Quote:Originally Posted by jlsawell
I don't think you read my comments properly. Not once did I refer to water LEVEL or TEMPERATURE as the problem. The issue is the salinity of the NAC. Even if they are measuring it, we just don't know what the threshold is for it to shut down.
It's all about the heavier Salty water and the lighter fresh water. As the water evaporates from the North Atlantic and becomes London drizzle, the heavier, more salty water sinks to the bottom and returns to the equator.
Disrupt that balance, and in one season you'll see a different type of winter, because the equatorial warmth will stay in the south.
It will eventually rebalance, as the new ice & snow in the north will suck up some of the fresh water, and gradually the NAC will move further and further north until we get back where we are today.
But please understand... melting ice isn't about temperature or sea levels - it's about the salinity mix in the NAC.
Al Gore presents it pretty well in An Inconvenient Truth.
There's also a story called Bristow On Ice, which I will try to find and post.
The part of your post I was responding directly to was:
This is a common misconception but is simply untrue for any body of floating ice, no matter what it's salinity. If the ice melts, the water neither rises nor falls even a millimeter because it is the mass displacement which affects the water level, not the volume in it's liquid or solid states.Quote:Dude, If climate really get's warmer the sea level will drop...
Think about a glass FULL of ice, what will happen when all the ice is melted ?
About 3 quater of the glass is full, ice has more volume than water, and when it sit's under water ( like 95% ! of all the iceberg's on the northpole ) then the sea level will drop.
Simple math.
Now, MANY things affect the water currents which directly affect the weather in much of the world, but I'll go out on a limb and say that anyone, even experts, who think they have it ALL figured out is really just a pompous stuffed shirt. There are still too many unknowns at our current state of understanding to state with certainty what "would" happen, because as soon as you change one thing something unexpected happens.
Cheers!
Posted 08-26-2008 at 07:51 AM by PhantomPholly
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Well, I also heard about the ''ocean flow'' , and when all the ice melt's al; that water (heavy water I suppose) would affect the ''flow'' of the ocean's.
But still, if it would happen, or is happening, we just can't change that.
And when the first sign's where there for a (warmer) changing climate, im pretty damn sure modern ''polluting'' machine's where not around.
What about the ice-age a few 1000 years ago ?
Do you think that also was the cause of gas-guzzeling machine's ?
If it is happening it is happening, simple as that, we can't change it, and we did'nt cause it.
If weather was tracked and monitored (sorry ) for 800years, that time would be to short to conclude the climate is really changing.
You need more like 10000 years orso to come to an ''relieable'' avarage.
With drastic up's and down's in that period.
And not just the temprature, but also the amount of gasses in the air, space radiation (mainly from the sun) and pretty sure a few more factor's.
I also believe there are currently 4 major sunspots on the sun that produce an amazig amouth of heat radiation.
With is directly affecting our air, and indirectly our ocean, by warming it up very very very slowly.
It has absolutly nothing to do with our life stlye.
But, I agree with the fact that we can/must live cleaner and more effiecient.
Just because WE CAN.
But the dirty trick's our government is playing, taxing everything a bit more ''because it is better for the enviroment'' it's just AARRRGGGG !
The alternative's are just to expencive, and they make the ''old dirty in-efficient (compared to the the most advanced) things'' more expencive by taxing it extra.
Either way IT'S GONNA COST YA !
They should be fair, not taxing dirty things extra, but just telling us kindly that we should use cleaner verhicle's because it will be better in the end for us all.
It's all about money and profit, like almost everything in our modern world.
The big climate HOAX.
Was signed,
Al Gore.Posted 08-26-2008 at 11:37 AM by The Flying Dutchman
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Yep - Live clean. Kill government corruption and favoritism - support the FairTax!
Posted 08-26-2008 at 01:11 PM by PhantomPholly
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Quote:Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman
But the dirty trick's our government is playing, taxing everything a bit more ''because it is better for the enviroment'' it's just AARRRGGGG !
Heres where I draw the line and pick sides....
Don't know if climate change is a deliberate hoax or not, but carbon taxes piss me off!!!!!!!!
The leader of the official opposition in canada wants to impose a carbon tax if elected prime minister. And strangely enough, he has support from some urban voters. You gotta love how they are able to turn one citizen against another when it comes to who is to blame for things that no one can really control anyway. The current government is trying to fight the idea, but polls don't look so good at the moment.
I like eating fresh produce, much of it comes from Chile right now thanks to a "fresh" trade deal between canada and chile. Being further than california one could argue that buy purchasing those fruits instead of the closer produce from the USA, I'm making a poor decision for the earth (more fuel burned to get it up here). But I'm not going to pay more for a product thats not as fresh, usually picked green and costs more. Apples from new zealand are also way better than what gets exported from the states. Of course I will buy locally grown produce when its in season (like now) as there is nothing wrong with it other than its not available year round. No offense indented to any americans, but the fresh produce that you send north has a ways to go in terms of quality....
Where am I going with this? well, if leaders like Dion have his way, carbon taxes could be applied to produce that comes from other parts of the world making it more expensive to eat healthy. This is a scam and maybe even an excuse for market protectionism. First the GST was introduced now its going to be carbon taxes. Those are not fixed taxes, they are by percentage, meaning that as the cost of fuel goes up, so too does the amount of revenue made. I pay enough tax already, thank you very much.
And if any of you believe that these taxes will be "revenue neutral" as claimed, well I've got a bridge to the province of PEI that I can sell you. Only a few years old and made to last a century
With all the rhetoric about an election coming up, I can't wait to cast my ballot. I'll go to an election office the day it opens and cast my vote ASAP!!!! These idiots really piss me offPosted 08-26-2008 at 01:45 PM by david85
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The new slavery is economic slavery; contrasting what the government does for you vs. what you could do for yourself is a no-brainer. When the politicians can persuade the people to argue about WHAT to tax, the people have already lost the battle for freedom. Politicians win when they can tax so many little things that we are no longer aware of the total level of taxation burden placed upon us - and even when one tax is successfully defeated, it is simply moved around. That is why a solution like (if not exactly) the FairTax is the only hope of reclaiming our freedom - because they cannot hide the taxes when they only have 2 numbers (the prebate amount, and the tax rate) they are allowed to quibble over.
By this measure, there are almost no free countries left on earth - and it will get worse, not better.
But, I still want electric cars...Posted 08-26-2008 at 03:26 PM by PhantomPholly
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What is this "fairtax"? Is it a GST? (goods and services tax)?
We have that in canada in addition to income and other taxes. It has saved the country from ballooning national debt though. We've had consecutive surplus federal budgets for well over a decade now. The federal GST was recently cut from 7% to 5% (campaign promise).
I'm gonna be so pissed if they impose another tax (carbon tax) on top of everything else.
Probably the only thing that would keep me form going insane is an EV at this point. Ahh... theres that happy thought again
Posted 08-26-2008 at 06:24 PM by david85
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Posted 08-26-2008 at 09:03 PM by ww321q
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Note: This discusses an off-topic issue by invitation. I will keep it short and not repeat. Apologies to the topic purists.
Simple answer: The FairTax replaces virtually EVERY Federal Tax with a simple sales tax. To avoid taxing the poor, each citizen receives a check each month for the amount you would spend living at the poverty level. Thus no tax on "Necessities" as stipulated in our Constitution - it is left up to the individual, instead of politicians, to determine what is a "Necessity" The result is a system that is simple and inexpensive to administer.
There are several advantages to the system, the most important from my perspective being that government cannot hide how much they really tax us. It also makes domestic goods compete better both domestically and abroad; reduces the cost of tax compliance / collection by $500 billion (yes, billion) per year (5% of the U.S. GDP wasted); and puts control over how much tax we pay in the hands of the people instead of the Congress.
For example: The GST increases the cost of what you buy, but if it is like the European VAT tax you often get charged more than once. This is because for any product which undergoes more than one step in manufacture will include in it's final price any GST charged for the components to make it, and then GST will be charged on that as well. The same phenomenon occurs with Income Tax, Employment / Labor taxes, etc. With the FairTax, only the final retail sale is taxed - preventing "double-dipping."
Politicians (no matter what party) love to disguise your taxes and to make thousands of little taxes - so if you manage to have a popular uprising against one tax they still have lots of your money.
In the U.S. today, the median person (#50 out of 100) pays over 50% of everything they earn in taxes (State, Federal, Local). The logical question you have to ask yourself is, if over half of everything you produce is taken from you, are you free?
End of description, for more info visit http://www.fairtax.org. Several countries NOT the U.S. are pursuing this alternative as a way to be more competitive globally.Posted 08-27-2008 at 07:37 AM by PhantomPholly
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What's sad is when people see the FairTax rate (up to 23%/30% depending how it's calculated / your income), they complain that it's some giant tax increase when they are already paying that. It's not a tax increase - it's just showing you how much the government really steals from you.Quote:Originally Posted by PhantomPholly
In the U.S. today, the median person (#50 out of 100) pays over 50% of everything they earn in taxes (State, Federal, Local). The logical question you have to ask yourself is, if over half of everything you produce is taken from you, are you free?
Neither Obama or McCain will support the FairTax, the only hope is Bob Barr.Posted 08-27-2008 at 08:44 AM by ClintK
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Canada has a GST, and its a mixed blessing. Although nearly everything that moves has it applied. Food and some other essentials are exempt. You will see a GST happen eventually in the USA, its only a matter of time with the deficits that washington is racking up. But I wouldn't count on seeing income tax getting abolished.
Posted 08-27-2008 at 10:05 AM by david85
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The root problem isn't the tax system, although inefficient systems which allow politicians to hide true tax levels helps them to keep outrage suppressed.
The root problem is spending, which is not Constitutionally limited.
Historically, every empire which does not act to keep spending in check and balance their budgets ultimately collapses - which will truly stink if it happens about the time I'm dreaming of retirement.
As an interesting side note, a Sheriff in Arizona has demonstrated that it is possible to humanely clothe, house, feed, and contain prisoners all for around $1 per day. This tells me that, aside from the military, we could easily have a government less than 10% as expensive as it is today and still do everything IMPORTANT that it does - maybe better.Posted 08-27-2008 at 10:25 AM by PhantomPholly
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You guys don't wanna know what is happening in Holland right now.
We proud hard working Hollanders have had it with our government.
Media is beginning to turn his back on the government, 2 policitians in our parliament are under serious investigation by the media, And 1 politician is already gone because of corruption and theft, 10years ago he broke in to the ministerie of defence...
We have had it with this corrupt government, they even wanted to raise the -standard- tax to 20% ( a tax with is standard on all products, don't know the right word in English ) , but under the pressure of ALL people it did'nt make it.
Happely.
The Hollanders are really beginning to wake up now, There are probably ( like 100% ) more corrupt and criminal politican's in our government right now, but im pretty sure the media is gonna get them soon.
And can you imagine, if we have 10 criminal/or corrupt politicians in our Holland government, what would it be like in the EU-government/parliament ?
It's all a bunch of maffia.
I really hope other people in the other EU country's are also beginning to wake up and get after there ''leaders''.
Something big is gonna happen in the EU, if not the EU, then Holland.
I estimate this government will sit 5 more weeks, and after that (or sooner) it will fall.
It's really a mess here.
You will probably see on CNN soon ''Dutch government falls AGAIN'' or something like that.
Hope the whole EU will fall apart, and Holland will stand on it's own again.
Without corrupt and lie'ing EU leaders.
Sorry for going off-topic, but i think you Americans just need to know this. Europa isnt a great place to be. not anymore.
Anyway, watch the news on falling Holland governmentPosted 08-27-2008 at 12:14 PM by The Flying Dutchman
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Sorry for your pain. The problem is that once a Democratic country has half of it's people working for the government you will NEVER vote to make government smaller.Quote:Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman
You guys don't wanna know what is happening in Holland right now.
.....
Anyway, watch the news on falling Holland government
That's why the writers of the Constitution did not want a Democracy. They knew it was a trap.Posted 08-27-2008 at 01:03 PM by PhantomPholly
