The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Posted 12-15-2010 at 02:47 PM by FB Performance Trans
Some time ago we were approached by a City Municipality that was in the process of doing a fleet conversion of their gas vehicles to electric. Their bottom line was to achieve vehicle performance and functionality that replicated that of the gas vehicle while of course providing long term energy cost savings. Their approach was to follow the lead of so many others by setting up the driveline with a “stick” type transmission.
Their first prototype proved to be very successful in all areas except one: Drivability. This unfortunate outcome was due to the use of a high torque electric motor in combination with repeated clutch engagements necessary during the normal gear changes. Numerous attempts to feather the clutch to prevent the sudden jerking of the vehicle and its passengers proved to be unacceptable.
They realized that the only solution would be to replace the stick with an automatic type transmission. On the surface this sounded easy enough, except that they discovered that throughout the EV industry most were skeptical about using an automatic for this type of application. So after much resistance to this idea, they decided to go outside normal channels and they contacted us. The result has been their complete satisfaction in achieving their “bottom line”.
Our objective here is to make everyone aware that the automatic transmission is absolutely a viable alternative. Let me start off by briefly acquainting you with our company. FB Performance Transmissions is a family owned and operated business. We’ve been successfully producing high performance and racing transmissions for a variety of automotive aftermarket applications since 1988. One of our specialties over the years has been the ability to adapt various transmissions to different types of motors. More recently of course we’ve been applying similar technology for Electric Vehicle purposes.
We’ve developed these transmissions and engineered the related equipment specifically for use in these types of applications. We now offer two 3-speed automatic transmissions. Both of these units are based on the original Ford AOD and AODE transmissions. We chose these transmissions because of the availability of a Low Gear Planetary set and the fact that we can custom build them to handle 1000+HP if necessary.
The AODE is fully automatic with a programmable Power-train Control Module (PCM) where all of the shift points can be varied and set as desired. The AO3 uses a Full-manual valve body where the driver always has total control over the transmission functions. The valve-bodies in both of these units are designed to eliminate the normal fluid bleed off, so that the transmission can react immediately to the input torque of the electric motor. They both have the strength and durability to handle the typical torque of these motors in conjunction with the weight of vehicles. Yet they provide a smooth transition when shifting from one gear to next, without the sudden jerking response typically found when using a clutch with stick type transmission.
We have also successfully engineered and fabricated the entire mounting interface between the Electric motor and the transmission. These components include the following and are listed as options on our spec sheets (See Links Below):
1) Motor to Transmission Billet Mounting plate – easily adaptable to a variety of electric motors that incorporate a surface mounting plate.
2) Motor shaft Rigid Steel Coupling – designed to fit a number of different motor shaft diameters and torque requirements.
3) Steel Flexplate – permits direct mounting of the Torque Converter (Fluid Coupler).
4) Torque Converter/Fluid Coupler – engineered for minimum stall and maximum coupling efficiency and fluid dampening.
The completed package of components provides for a very rigid assembly and permits a very simple installation into almost any type of rear-wheel drive vehicle. To better illustrate this I’m enclosing a series of assembly photos. (See Attachments below). The following links cover both of these transmissions:
Heavy Duty AODE (4R70W) Non Lock-up- Electric Motor Conversions
http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=100
Heavy Duty AO3 (AOD) Non Lock-up - Electric Motor Conversions
http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=101
If you have an interest or any questions about what we’ve developed, please contact us and we be glad to go over all of the details with you.
Contact: Mike or Fred
In NY: 1-631-242-0008
Outside NY: 1-800-769-1118
FAX: 1-631-243-3054
E-Mail: fbp@fbperformance.com
Web: http://www.fbperformance.com
Their first prototype proved to be very successful in all areas except one: Drivability. This unfortunate outcome was due to the use of a high torque electric motor in combination with repeated clutch engagements necessary during the normal gear changes. Numerous attempts to feather the clutch to prevent the sudden jerking of the vehicle and its passengers proved to be unacceptable.
They realized that the only solution would be to replace the stick with an automatic type transmission. On the surface this sounded easy enough, except that they discovered that throughout the EV industry most were skeptical about using an automatic for this type of application. So after much resistance to this idea, they decided to go outside normal channels and they contacted us. The result has been their complete satisfaction in achieving their “bottom line”.
Our objective here is to make everyone aware that the automatic transmission is absolutely a viable alternative. Let me start off by briefly acquainting you with our company. FB Performance Transmissions is a family owned and operated business. We’ve been successfully producing high performance and racing transmissions for a variety of automotive aftermarket applications since 1988. One of our specialties over the years has been the ability to adapt various transmissions to different types of motors. More recently of course we’ve been applying similar technology for Electric Vehicle purposes.
We’ve developed these transmissions and engineered the related equipment specifically for use in these types of applications. We now offer two 3-speed automatic transmissions. Both of these units are based on the original Ford AOD and AODE transmissions. We chose these transmissions because of the availability of a Low Gear Planetary set and the fact that we can custom build them to handle 1000+HP if necessary.
The AODE is fully automatic with a programmable Power-train Control Module (PCM) where all of the shift points can be varied and set as desired. The AO3 uses a Full-manual valve body where the driver always has total control over the transmission functions. The valve-bodies in both of these units are designed to eliminate the normal fluid bleed off, so that the transmission can react immediately to the input torque of the electric motor. They both have the strength and durability to handle the typical torque of these motors in conjunction with the weight of vehicles. Yet they provide a smooth transition when shifting from one gear to next, without the sudden jerking response typically found when using a clutch with stick type transmission.
We have also successfully engineered and fabricated the entire mounting interface between the Electric motor and the transmission. These components include the following and are listed as options on our spec sheets (See Links Below):
1) Motor to Transmission Billet Mounting plate – easily adaptable to a variety of electric motors that incorporate a surface mounting plate.
2) Motor shaft Rigid Steel Coupling – designed to fit a number of different motor shaft diameters and torque requirements.
3) Steel Flexplate – permits direct mounting of the Torque Converter (Fluid Coupler).
4) Torque Converter/Fluid Coupler – engineered for minimum stall and maximum coupling efficiency and fluid dampening.
The completed package of components provides for a very rigid assembly and permits a very simple installation into almost any type of rear-wheel drive vehicle. To better illustrate this I’m enclosing a series of assembly photos. (See Attachments below). The following links cover both of these transmissions:
Heavy Duty AODE (4R70W) Non Lock-up- Electric Motor Conversions
http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=100
Heavy Duty AO3 (AOD) Non Lock-up - Electric Motor Conversions
http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=101
If you have an interest or any questions about what we’ve developed, please contact us and we be glad to go over all of the details with you.
Contact: Mike or Fred
In NY: 1-631-242-0008
Outside NY: 1-800-769-1118
FAX: 1-631-243-3054
E-Mail: fbp@fbperformance.com
Web: http://www.fbperformance.com
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Total Comments 27
Comments
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Hi Steve
Both of the (2) transmissions that we offer can be upgraded to handle either more power or more weight. For the application that you've mentioned the Low Gear Planetary set with the 2.84 1st gear would be a definite requirement. I would also think that for this type of application you’ll probably have to use at least (2) 11” WARP electric motors in series.
We have never come across an application with as much weight that would use just the electric motor with direct drive. A transmission added will definitely make a big difference not only for drivability but for the initial take off from a dead stop as well. It should also reduce amount of current required to move that much weight during each phase of coming up to the desired driving speed.
The restriction of fluid bleed off has been accomplished by modifications to the valvebody. The torque converter has also been modified, but it’s been done to reduce the stall speed (internal slippage). The converter in this case becomes more of a fluid coupler because whenever the stall speed is reduced the coupling efficiency is greatly increased. This is very important in EV conversions because the electric motor produces a lot of bottom end (low rpm) torque.
Both of these transmissions retain the same OEM dimensions and weight. They’re 31” long with the crossmember location 22-3/4” back from the face of the bellhousing. The billet Alum adapter plate is 1-1/2” thick. The dry weight of the transmission, torque converter and adapter plate is 185 lbs.
If you have any additional questions you can also e-mail us at fbp@fbperformance.com.
Thanks
Mike
Posted 03-01-2011 at 03:36 PM by FB Performance Trans 
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An idea
This closely resembles an idea I have been contemplating but lack the engineering background for. I am familiar with a relatively bulletproof two-speed transmission used for racing applications: http://www.brinninc.com/
It is a manual shift, but I wonder if a similar result would be achieved by replacing the clutch assembly with at torque converter and replacing the need for a stick shift with an electronic actuator to shift. The advantages that I see are: the size, efficiency and weight are excellent, it is tough and easy to work on and electric vehicles do not usually need more than two gears. I especially like the "Modified Open Drive Transmission" for this application. Used Brinn transmissions can easily be found on ebay, but new units are in the $2000 range.
Maybe I'm giving away ideas here, but your adaptations combined with their product seems like a winning combination...
If it works, I'd be happy to test the final product
Posted 05-11-2011 at 11:59 AM by normalmitra
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I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but....
There’s really no need to “reinvent the wheel” by trying to use a torque converter with a stick type transmission. Besides, there’s no accommodation for fluid travel or pressure regulation in the stick. This all controlled in the valve body of the automatic. Beyond that the fluid used in a stick is completely different from what’s commonly used in a converter, and they can't be co-mingled.
There are many companies like ours that currently build 2-speed Powerglide transmissions that are even stronger then the stick transmission mentioned. (We build our units in different stages that range in capability from 700 to 2500+HP). http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=77
All of these units come with a full manual-shift valve body. The difference is we have developed the technology to restrict fluid pressure bleed-off during motor shutoff periods. So they don’t require any external pumping arrangement for typical EV conversions. In terms of overall size they can be built with a standard length of 27 ¾” or the “Shorty” version which is only 19 ¾” long. The transmissions are not only extremely efficient they also weigh only about 100lbs.
We are currently doing an EV conversion for a 3000# vehicle with a custom built 11” WARP motor capable of producing 800 ft/lbs of torque. So our Stage-2 Powerglide will work perfectly in this application with the properly built converter and adapting components: http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=56Posted 05-11-2011 at 04:43 PM by FB Performance Trans
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Gotcha
So...as usual I found a way to make something more complicated than necessary?
So is a clutch is not necessary for electric, and a torque converter is unnecessarily inefficient, would it be feasible to use a two or three speed manual and use an electronic actuator coneccted to the transmission shift point to change gears? You could hook it up to a paddle shifter like in high end sports cars.Posted 05-12-2011 at 07:45 AM by normalmitra
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Well that could be so, but at least you might recognize that a torque converter set up properly with a minimal stall rpm offers a lot to the drive-line of an EV Conversion. Converters built this way have maximum coupling efficiency to the point where they could almost be considered a fluid coupler. They also offer an important feature called fluid dampening. This prevents driveline from being continuously shocked by the high low end torque of the electric motor.
We offer 2-speed, 3-speed and 4-speed transmissions for EV conversions. Only the 2-speed is restricted to being operated with a full manual valvebody. The others can be fully automatic or full manual. The fully automatics are normally controlled by an aftermarket programmable controller or a stand alone shift control module. If someone wanted to use a paddle type shifter with a full manual unit that’s something that’s already being done with ICE applications.Posted 05-12-2011 at 04:06 PM by FB Performance Trans
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My '90 Toyota pu w/ auto, o/d, a/c, & overload springs just died on me--or, at least according to the mechanic, would cost more to fix than it's worth. I've been thinking of doing an EV conversion for awhile, and figured if it was going to happen, this would be the perfect opportunity. I have several questions:
1) Why can't I just hook the motor straight to the driveshaft and just dump the tranny?
2) In the several EV articles I've read, there's a lot about American trucks (esp. Chevy S10), but nothing about Toyotas, which in LA have to be the most ubiquitous pickups around?
3) If I "should" keep my tranny, are there any adaptor suppliers for Toyotas or does it have to be custom-made, &/or can you do it?Posted 07-04-2011 at 05:15 PM by cmfatemi
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Re: EV Conversion in Toyota Pick-up
Hi cmfatemi
RE: Your questions
1) There a number of reasons for retaining the transmission in an EV conversion such yours. Here I’m quoting from what a representative of a DC motor company (Net Gain) recently mentioned regarding a similar inquiry:
Without a transmission the motors will have a lot of difficulty moving a vehicle that doesn't have a very high numerical rear-gear and is very light weight. Additionally, once the vehicle is moving, the brakes won't be able to stop the motor if there were a catastrophic failure somewhere in your electrical design. I HIGHLY DISCOURAGE DIRECT DRIVE except for very experienced racing applications (also, the motors need to spin 2000-3500 RPM to properly cool themselves). Existing standard transmission are the most common and only 2-3 gears are normally used. Automatics (other than those supplied by FB Performance) are difficult to use because they normally allow up-shifting, but not down-shifting (automatically). They also are not as efficient. Direct drive with no transmission should not be considered in a "first build" or a "street" vehicle IMHO!
2) There should be absolutely no reason why you couldn’t use the same techniques for doing an EV conversion in your Toyota pick-up as those used in Chevy S-10 or Ford Rangers.
3) I’m not sure which Toyota transmission you currently have, but we would recommend using an automatic transmission and torque converter that is specifically designed for EV conversions. There are a number of reasons why this is important and it involves things like drivability, ease of installation, and of course the overall efficiency.
If you could send me a message to fbp@fbperformance.com I would be happy provide you with all of the details.Posted 07-05-2011 at 01:14 PM by FB Performance Trans
