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Update: AO3 Trans to 11" Warp Motor
I'm new to the site and I would like to know if anyone is associated with LIONEV or Ken CurryPosted 07-27-2011 at 04:48 PM by avery2retire 
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Re: EV Conversion in Toyota Pick-up
Hi cmfatemi
RE: Your questions
1) There a number of reasons for retaining the transmission in an EV conversion such yours. Here I’m quoting from what a representative of a DC motor company (Net Gain) recently mentioned regarding a similar inquiry:
Without a transmission the motors will have a lot of difficulty moving a vehicle that doesn't have a very high numerical rear-gear and is very light weight. Additionally, once the vehicle is moving, the brakes won't be able to stop the motor if there were a catastrophic failure somewhere in your electrical design. I HIGHLY DISCOURAGE DIRECT DRIVE except for very experienced racing applications (also, the motors need to spin 2000-3500 RPM to properly cool themselves). Existing standard transmission are the most common and only 2-3 gears are normally used. Automatics (other than those supplied by FB Performance) are difficult to use because they normally allow up-shifting, but not down-shifting (automatically). They also are not as efficient. Direct drive with no transmission should not be considered in a "first build" or a "street" vehicle IMHO!
2) There should be absolutely no reason why you couldn’t use the same techniques for doing an EV conversion in your Toyota pick-up as those used in Chevy S-10 or Ford Rangers.
3) I’m not sure which Toyota transmission you currently have, but we would recommend using an automatic transmission and torque converter that is specifically designed for EV conversions. There are a number of reasons why this is important and it involves things like drivability, ease of installation, and of course the overall efficiency.
If you could send me a message to fbp@fbperformance.com I would be happy provide you with all of the details.Posted 07-05-2011 at 01:14 PM by FB Performance Trans
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
My '90 Toyota pu w/ auto, o/d, a/c, & overload springs just died on me--or, at least according to the mechanic, would cost more to fix than it's worth. I've been thinking of doing an EV conversion for awhile, and figured if it was going to happen, this would be the perfect opportunity. I have several questions:
1) Why can't I just hook the motor straight to the driveshaft and just dump the tranny?
2) In the several EV articles I've read, there's a lot about American trucks (esp. Chevy S10), but nothing about Toyotas, which in LA have to be the most ubiquitous pickups around?
3) If I "should" keep my tranny, are there any adaptor suppliers for Toyotas or does it have to be custom-made, &/or can you do it?Posted 07-04-2011 at 05:15 PM by cmfatemi
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Update: AO3 Trans to 11" Warp Motor
We haven’t heard of anyone using that type of transmission for an EV conversion. Perhaps that’s because they’re meant for lighter duty applications. They might not be durable enough to handle the higher bottom torque that many of these electric motors produce. That in combination with the typical over all weight of a normal EV might compromise its use for these applications.Posted 05-16-2011 at 01:25 PM by FB Performance Trans
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Update: AO3 Trans to 11" Warp Motor
I'm new to EV. Transmissions are one of my biggest questions in the EV field. I haven't seen anything about CONSTANT VELOCITY trannys, like the kind used in some Honda vehicles or even snowmobiles. Any thoughts?Posted 05-14-2011 at 10:33 PM by BDS65
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Well that could be so, but at least you might recognize that a torque converter set up properly with a minimal stall rpm offers a lot to the drive-line of an EV Conversion. Converters built this way have maximum coupling efficiency to the point where they could almost be considered a fluid coupler. They also offer an important feature called fluid dampening. This prevents driveline from being continuously shocked by the high low end torque of the electric motor.
We offer 2-speed, 3-speed and 4-speed transmissions for EV conversions. Only the 2-speed is restricted to being operated with a full manual valvebody. The others can be fully automatic or full manual. The fully automatics are normally controlled by an aftermarket programmable controller or a stand alone shift control module. If someone wanted to use a paddle type shifter with a full manual unit that’s something that’s already being done with ICE applications.Posted 05-12-2011 at 04:06 PM by FB Performance Trans
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Gotcha
So...as usual I found a way to make something more complicated than necessary?
So is a clutch is not necessary for electric, and a torque converter is unnecessarily inefficient, would it be feasible to use a two or three speed manual and use an electronic actuator coneccted to the transmission shift point to change gears? You could hook it up to a paddle shifter like in high end sports cars.Posted 05-12-2011 at 07:45 AM by normalmitra
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but....
There’s really no need to “reinvent the wheel” by trying to use a torque converter with a stick type transmission. Besides, there’s no accommodation for fluid travel or pressure regulation in the stick. This all controlled in the valve body of the automatic. Beyond that the fluid used in a stick is completely different from what’s commonly used in a converter, and they can't be co-mingled.
There are many companies like ours that currently build 2-speed Powerglide transmissions that are even stronger then the stick transmission mentioned. (We build our units in different stages that range in capability from 700 to 2500+HP). http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=77
All of these units come with a full manual-shift valve body. The difference is we have developed the technology to restrict fluid pressure bleed-off during motor shutoff periods. So they don’t require any external pumping arrangement for typical EV conversions. In terms of overall size they can be built with a standard length of 27 ¾” or the “Shorty” version which is only 19 ¾” long. The transmissions are not only extremely efficient they also weigh only about 100lbs.
We are currently doing an EV conversion for a 3000# vehicle with a custom built 11” WARP motor capable of producing 800 ft/lbs of torque. So our Stage-2 Powerglide will work perfectly in this application with the properly built converter and adapting components: http://www.fbperformance.com/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=56Posted 05-11-2011 at 04:43 PM by FB Performance Trans
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
An idea
This closely resembles an idea I have been contemplating but lack the engineering background for. I am familiar with a relatively bulletproof two-speed transmission used for racing applications: http://www.brinninc.com/
It is a manual shift, but I wonder if a similar result would be achieved by replacing the clutch assembly with at torque converter and replacing the need for a stick shift with an electronic actuator to shift. The advantages that I see are: the size, efficiency and weight are excellent, it is tough and easy to work on and electric vehicles do not usually need more than two gears. I especially like the "Modified Open Drive Transmission" for this application. Used Brinn transmissions can easily be found on ebay, but new units are in the $2000 range.
Maybe I'm giving away ideas here, but your adaptations combined with their product seems like a winning combination...
If it works, I'd be happy to test the final product
Posted 05-11-2011 at 11:59 AM by normalmitra
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Hi Steve
Both of the (2) transmissions that we offer can be upgraded to handle either more power or more weight. For the application that you've mentioned the Low Gear Planetary set with the 2.84 1st gear would be a definite requirement. I would also think that for this type of application you’ll probably have to use at least (2) 11” WARP electric motors in series.
We have never come across an application with as much weight that would use just the electric motor with direct drive. A transmission added will definitely make a big difference not only for drivability but for the initial take off from a dead stop as well. It should also reduce amount of current required to move that much weight during each phase of coming up to the desired driving speed.
The restriction of fluid bleed off has been accomplished by modifications to the valvebody. The torque converter has also been modified, but it’s been done to reduce the stall speed (internal slippage). The converter in this case becomes more of a fluid coupler because whenever the stall speed is reduced the coupling efficiency is greatly increased. This is very important in EV conversions because the electric motor produces a lot of bottom end (low rpm) torque.
Both of these transmissions retain the same OEM dimensions and weight. They’re 31” long with the crossmember location 22-3/4” back from the face of the bellhousing. The billet Alum adapter plate is 1-1/2” thick. The dry weight of the transmission, torque converter and adapter plate is 185 lbs.
If you have any additional questions you can also e-mail us at fbp@fbperformance.com.
Thanks
Mike
Posted 03-01-2011 at 03:36 PM by FB Performance Trans
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
A Question
This is all in my mind at the moment; but I am contemplating such a project; and would appreciate your input. Can the auto trans that you speak of handle 27,000 lbs gross weight in a truck driven by an electric motor? I have read that you have overcome the hydraulic bleed down so there is good take off from an electric motor that does not idle when the vehicle is not in moption. I am sure the torque convertor has a lot to do with that, too. Please confirm that or correct me. If your current model isn't up to that task, could you build one that is? I believe an automatic with multiple gears would give me drivability not attainable with direct drive/single speed. It would allow a higher top speed without draining the batteries. It would allow me to reach those higher speeds with less battery drain. I believe it would give me more range in that I am turning less RPM; there fore less electric use. The benefits seem obvious; can you tell me if it's possible? A couple of side questions - 1. What would this transmission weigh? 2.What is it's overall length? Thank you Steve KPosted 03-01-2011 at 10:51 AM by steve k
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
There’s never anything wrong with asking questions, especially if there’s out-of-pocket money involved. We’ve always found that when a customer has lots of questions that we can answer, it helps them make good decisions about the direction they want to go with their project.
Over the last 15 years we’ve become very familiar with both the AOD and AODE (4R70W) transmissions. We’ve devoted a lot of time upgrading them for variety of ICE applications. We’ve developed these transmissions and engineered the related adapting equipment specifically for use in EV conversions. The older type transmissions, like those you mentioned use much older technology and are limited to having Low Gear Planetary sets readily available at a reasonable cost.
We now offer two 3-speed automatic transmissions. Both of these units are based on the original Ford AOD and AODE transmissions. We chose these transmissions because they are readily available. Their strength and durability have been proven time and again and we can custom build them to handle 1000+HP if necessary.
1) The AODE is fully automatic with a programmable Power-train Control Module (PCM) where all of the shift points can be varied and set as desired.
2) The AO3 uses a Full-manual valve body where the driver always has total control over the transmission functions.
The valve-bodies in both of these units are designed to eliminate the normal fluid bleed off, so that the transmission can react immediately to the input torque of the electric motor. They both have the strength and durability to handle the typical torque of these motors in conjunction with the weight of vehicles. Yet they provide a smooth transition when shifting from one gear to next, without the sudden jerking response typically found when using a clutch with stick type transmission.Posted 02-28-2011 at 03:16 PM by FB Performance Trans
Updated 02-28-2011 at 03:20 PM by FB Performance Trans -
The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Do you specifically like the Ford AOD and AODE transmissions? Or were they specified bu the customer? I know you mentioned that the Low Gear Planetary set was easier to come by.. Can this be done with a Powerglide, TH350, TH400 or any other GM type automatic?
My first thought for my project was an automatic, then I switched to a manual but most other EV projects using the manual said they only use a few (maybe 2) gears out of the 3,4,5 or 6 speed tranys they are using.. Then I started looking for a 2 or 3 speed manual but those are far and few between and I'm not sure the gearing would be right for an electric motor project..
Sorry for all the questions!Posted 02-26-2011 at 07:49 PM by ElectrifiedMonteSS
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Thank you very much for your advicePosted 01-21-2011 at 11:59 PM by Marco
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
no you do not have to keep the flywheel for a manual. an adapter has to me made to attach where the spline shaft where the flywheel would to the motor shaft.Posted 01-21-2011 at 11:39 PM by electrc109
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Hi again. Sorry, i did not know that you were talking about automatic gearboxes and reading now what i posted last you must think i am a retard or something..... This shock you are talking about is this also applicable on manual gearboxes? and do i need to keep the flywheel for a manual gearbox?Posted 01-21-2011 at 11:22 PM by Marco
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Hi electrc109Quote:by electrc109
on the cars i've converted, i simply removed the clutch and mounted the motor directly onto the flywheel. no clutch since you don't idle. it requires smooth shifting, but it works!
You’re right, there seem to be many options for setting up the driveline in EV conversions. However from what we’ve gathered from the customers we’ve dealt with, they wanted their EVs to have the same drivability as an ICE. As you know in the Automotive Industry there are far more automatics in service these then sticks. Of course, everyone has their own preferences and what they are willing to tolerate as far as drivability goes.
Hi MarcoQuote:by Marco
You are saying that you leave the flywheel in place. I got the impression that it was no longer required, aka dead weight. I must ad that a gearbox close by also said he is going to leave the flywheel in. Basically stating that it will keep the momentum.
With an automatic transmission the flywheel is replaced with a much lighter flexplate, but the torque converter that’s added certainly adds more weight and of course maintains the momentum you mentioned. It also dampens the initial shock to the driveline each time the electric motor is restarted.
Posted 01-20-2011 at 02:33 PM by FB Performance Trans
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
You are saying that you leave the flywheel in place. I got the impression that it was no longer required, aka dead weight. I must ad that a gearbox close by also said he is going to leave the flywheel in. Basically stating that it will keep the momentum.Posted 01-20-2011 at 10:27 AM by Marco
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
on the cars i've converted, i simply removed the clutch and mounted the motor directly onto the flywheel. no clutch since you don't idle. it requires smooth shifting, but it works!Posted 01-15-2011 at 11:38 AM by electrc109
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The “Automatic” Solution for EV Conversions
Quote:Thank you for taking the time to provide the info I inquired about. I really appreciate people/shops like yourselves, who step up with quality parts and stand behind them. Thank you for your time!
Ernie
Quote:Thank you for providing your products to the EV DIY Market!
Browser330
You’re welcome! We have always believed in providing as much information as possible so that our customers can make intelligent decisions about their cars.
We’re hoping that if we can produce more of this equipment that it will help to bring the costs down particularly with the adapting components. Although they’re completely engineered right now they’re being produced one at a time.
Mike @ FB Performance TransmissionPosted 01-11-2011 at 03:41 PM by FB Performance Trans
