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#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello,
I was wondering if I could just add an alternator to an ev and get a range extender. The alternator seems like a good idea, even an industrial one, now... I have no knowledge in this area whatsoever, so would anyone enlighten me?

{Note From The Administrators:
This has now become the official thread for all questions relating to using alternators/generators WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL POWER SOURCE. Call it free energy/perpetual motion/ over-unity or whatever you will. If you have a question about a series hybrid or range extender (with an ICE engine) then feel free to ask start a new thread, if you want to know about the other kind then please read this thread and the wiki first before asking questions. Cheers, mattW}
 
#2 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

An alternator need to be driven to produce energy. Also like any other energy conversion technology, it needs more energy coming in than it will produce.

So where is this energy coming from? I hope not from the battery pack. Since it'll take more energy than it produces, it'll run that battry pack down faster than if you didn't have it at all.

Gas or diesel? Now you're getting somewhere. A series hybrid is essentially this type of system. A diesel genset generates power that drives the electric motor or charges the batteries.

ga2500ev
 
#3 · (Edited)
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Hey, apparently alot of people bring up this idea about some kind of alternator or generation system to take advantage of the car's forward movement in order to extend the range. I should know, I'm one of those people lol. It would be great, but the general consensus is that the actual generation of electricity, the movement of electrons in the coils, basically creates an electromagnet that makes drag, effectively making it harder to move the generator the more power you're generating.

Here's the thread I started - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2-basic-questions-13043.html - These guys are really smart and have helped me think this through, but basically my thought is that if you changed the curve of your generation coils to maximize your capture of the spinning magnetic field, it might also eliminate that radial drag factor and even get it to move faster per power drain instead of the other way around. It would be like a figure-8 circuit, with one set of magnets effectively repelling the other by-proxy of your coiling. There's alot of mights there, so I've got plans and parts to build the thing and I'll be keeping people updated. But until that happens, I'd listen to the conventional wisdom of these guys.
 
#4 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Well, I have been considering the "micro diesel" approach that would run off of waste vege oil or biodiesel. This would power A/C, PS, and alternator to charge may be 12 v system and provide current to 144v system, not sure about dc-dc conversions though. This would greatly extend the range of the vehicle (depending on the fuel tank and engine size). there are small diesel generators that you could rob the engine from. Also diesels on mowers as well.
 
#5 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Well, I have been considering the "micro diesel" approach that would run off of waste vege oil or biodiesel. This would power A/C, PS, and alternator to charge may be 12 v system and provide current to 144v system, not sure about dc-dc conversions though. This would greatly extend the range of the vehicle (depending on the fuel tank and engine size). there are small diesel generators that you could rob the engine from. Also diesels on mowers as well.
A diesel lawn mower? That would be the perfect engine to harvest and turn into a generator. Good idea. The only mowers I know of in NZ are 2 and 4 stroke petrol engines unfortunately.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Hello,
I was wondering if I could just add an alternator to an ev and get a range extender. The alternator seems like a good idea, even an industrial one, now... I have no knowledge in this area whatsoever, so would anyone enlighten me?
To answer your question:

If you mean adding an alternator that's powered by the electric motor of the EV, then simply no, it will not work.

This is what you call Perpetual Motion and according to all the laws of physics it is impossible.

You can never get more energy out of a system than you put in.

A simple experiment to do yourself, goto the local hobby store buy two small 6 volt electric motors, link their shafts together then wire them together.

Now try spinning them, they will not continue to spin.


A normal gasoline car's alternator takes energy away from the spinning engine to produce electrical energy, but this is not 100% efficient.

In order to obtain Perpetual motion you need a system that is more than 100% efficient, which is impossible.

EDIT: I think I should make a wiki article on this, seems I've written this nearly 20 times now.
EDIT: Here it is:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=40555#post40555


EDIT: I forgot to mention.

If your referring to an Alternator that is powered by a gasoline/diesel engine as a range extender, then yes, this can work, this is what is called a Series Hybrid.
 
#1,219 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

If you mean adding an alternator that's powered by the electric motor of the EV, then simply no, it will not work.
This is what you call Perpetual Motion
I have an *obviously* electric bike. The batteries are prominently positioned, and anybody can see them. The bike gets considerable attention because there isn't anybody else like this in Kansas City.
Every day, or maybe almost every day, I get asked this stupid generator question. When I provide a short answer, they often want to argue. I don't bother. But it's amazing how ignorant these people are.
 
#10 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

I respect that such a thing doesn't exist yet, but that doesn't mean it never will. Perpetual energy or perpetual motion is not impossible, since by the very definition magnets themselves are perpetual energy devices (though they slowly lose charge over many years). The blockage I think is a mental one and not necessarily a physical one... most people seem to look at the magnetic drag as an inevitability of nature and throw up their hands, and make little to no attempt to thwart it (provided they even get that far in their thoughts..). My disagreement isn't so much with the practicality of this statement, that perpetual motion is impossible, but with its theoretical basis - because if you look around at the energies and forces that keep this little world spinning you'll see that's just not the case. It's our technology that has to catch up to the Universe, not the other way around. If we can split atoms and forge particular vortices and build the internet, then someone somewhere someday should be able to make a generator with no electromagnetic drag. The technology hasn't really changed much in the last century, it's a mystery to me why this particular hurtle has remained for so long.. But nevertheless, never say never. :p
 
#11 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

I've never heard of this electromagnetic drag, but even overcoming it doesn't overcome the fact that whatever energy you are getting from the alternator is coming from the moving wheel, which is getting its energy from the battery. So you are taking energy from the battery to give back to the battery, but you are wasting little bits of it along the way when you convert the elctricity to movement and heat, then to friction and movement, then from movement and friction back to electricity. That friction and heat are not trivial, and don't add up to negative amounts of energy, which is what you would need to wind up ahead.
 
#13 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

MrCrabs, over the course of a century or two yeah, especially if you used some strong neodymium magnets. I don't mean 'perpetual energy' in the sense of running virtually 'forever', but for all intents and purposes it would still probably last a lifetime at least.

Weelliot, the electromagnetic drag is caused when you actually start generating electricity with conventional generators, effectively making it harder to move the more power you generate. This is to be expected though from that coil geometry. It stands as the major hurtle to regenerating power this way, but if you crossed that hurtle there wouldn't be anything stopping you from at least making some attempt to gather power back from your vehicle's motion. I'm not discounting friction, or wobble, or heat, I know those are all factors but again even if you got 75% of your power back that makes for a significant added range.
 
#14 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Hey Guys!
I just have to say something about a magnet being a perpetual energy device..if a magnet is a perpetual energy device then so is any spring or a broom stick for that matter.It is just a property that seems "magical".You can not recycle its energy.You put a piece of steel in front of it that it pulls with whatever force untill it arrives on the magnet then what? You have to spend a lot greater energy to pull the steel off of it and you can do it again. In that analogy I have lots of perpetual energy hooks in my walls holding pictures for years now...anyways sorry this thread got a little sidetracked. Barna:)
 
#15 · (Edited)
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

You guys are the ones who've got me roped into the perpetual motion montage... I don't really want to prove perpetual motion, because theoretically it wouldn't be perpetual motion. That's given, fine, written in the stones, whatever I don't give a damn. I don't ascribe magnets any special magical properties, like you say it's just a magnet, and it does hold and emit a constant force, but if that constant limited force could be translated into forward spin then you would have a vehicle with a limited amount of constant forward thrust equal to how much magnet force you use. You could have a circuit that essentially would last as long as the permanent magnets themselves (which is a long damn time), with help from various other sources like wall jacks and solar to make up for losses from starting/stopping, heat and that sorta thing. Again, only if you made some clever alterations to the existing charging/drive systems and made a design of generator geometry that made magnetic drag into magnetic help, would this be possible. This should be something everybody who can should be investigating, not something to be scoffed at... And if it does work, it should be open source so anybody can build it! Don't you think cars should work more like wall hooks? Good analogy indeed... :p
 
#16 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Attention members, admins, et al:

This question, and numerous variations keeps coming up over and over. The answer is always the same. Can we get a sticky post explaining this? I'm sure it's in the wiki somewhere, too.

You can't extend the range of an EV by adding any kind of generator/alternator if it's powered directly or indirectly through the motion of the car. It's ALWAYS a loss. The Laws of Thermodynamics have stated this for years. A lot of people that seem otherwise intelligent keep asking this, and it winds up as a multi-page post with the more scientific types explaining that this leads to the whole perpetual motion thing, which is of course impossible.

The only useful application would be to recover energy during braking, but you don't need a generator or alternator for that - a motor controller with regen braking will do that for you.

You can always dream up creative "exceptions". If I put a wind turbine on the roof of my EV, then sat at a stoplight on a windy day, yes, I'll generate more power than I use. But that's just wind power, and you're not using the car's power (or motion through the air, which comes from the car's motor) to move the turbine. The list goes on...

Do we need a vote?

-Mark
 
#17 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

What if you lock the wind generator when the batteries are already full??
The answer would be a computer controlling he charge of the batteries and constantly enabling and disabling the turbine which could fit on the sides of the car or on the low part of the front bumper.
Just a thught, but then the answer is a generator just does not work.
Thank you.
 
#25 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

What if you lock the wind generator when the batteries are already full??
The answer would be a computer controlling he charge of the batteries and constantly enabling and disabling the turbine which could fit on the sides of the car or on the low part of the front bumper.
Just a thught, but then the answer is a generator just does not work.
Thank you.
Then in addition to havnig the wind generator create aerodynamic drag when it is working, you would have the aerodynamic drag of the wind generator even when it is not giving you energy.

Even if it were always sending electricity to the bank of batteries, the aero drag woudl always be greater than the energy it gives. The aero drag must be overcome by the motor, so you will be putting more energy into the motor than you'll get from the batteries.

Additionally, a wind generator locked so that it won't rotate actually creates more drag than one not locked in place. So lockign it would just create more drag, and give you no 'free' electricity to show for it.
 
#18 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Magnets do not give any energy they only provide a force which converts energy from one form to another. To get one magnet to push another magnet you need to move them closer to each other so that their magnetic fields interact. The force they exert on each other is the same or less than the force it took to move them together in the first place. Its not free energy/over-unity/perpetual motion its just a force, like gravity, which can store and convert energy from one form to another.

Electrically you can move electrons into a magnetic field (by moving the wire or using current) and the magnets will push the electrons perpendicular to their motion. If the wire is moving through the field it will push the electrons along the wire, converting the kinetic energy of the wire into electrical energy in the electrons. That is a generator. Or you can convert the electrical energy of the current in the wire into kinetic energy to push the coil. That is a motor. It is a simple efficient energy conversion. Don't bother thinking about electro-magnetic drag or anything like that, it is more of an illustration than the physics itself... All you need to think about it energy conversion, the best you can get is all of the kinetic energy ending up as electrical or visa versa.

Free energy/over-unity/perpetual motion is impossible in the universe we live in, I'm not saying it is hard, or untried or too expensive... it is physically impossible. It is exactly the same as creating your own atoms out of thin air (E=mc2). You are just as likely to create your own distinct universe as you are to get efficiency greater than 100%. I don't mean to be dramatic, I'm just trying to help you understand, some things are impossible and this is one of those things.

Wirecutter- there is a wiki article (two actually, here and here, no one ever checks before starting articles lol.) about this but I'll consider making a sticky too.
 
#19 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Free energy/over-unity/perpetual motion is impossible in the universe we live in, I'm not saying it is hard, or untried or too expensive... it is physically impossible. It is exactly the same as creating your own atoms out of thin air (E=mc2). You are just as likely to create your own distinct universe as you are to get efficiency greater than 100%. I don't mean to be dramatic, I'm just trying to help you understand, some things are impossible and this is one of those things.

Wirecutter- there is a wiki article (two actually, here and here, no one ever checks before starting articles lol.) about this but I'll consider making a sticky too.
Speaking of making microscopic distinct universes...

I'm agreeing with everything you're saying, and I don't know why we're arguing at this point. Like I said, magnets are nothing magical, they're just constant producers of a certain amount of force. Force can be used to create energy or electricity, and electricity can be converted back to force. It's nothing new, in fact it's all the same principles that go into electric motors and generators today. The only difference is some clever re-engineering of the geometry to turn it into something that would be as if you were holding those magnets close together, and you won't deny that that force exists. As you said, magnetic force becomes electricity and electricity becomes magnetic force, so a circuit can logically mediate that same force between the magnets and put it to work (with losses of course, but I've acknowledged that). Once again I'm not going over 100% - 100% would be the maximum magnet force available and you literally couldn't go higher than that. Again again, I'm not shooting for over-unity, perpetual motion or anything, not snatching atoms out of thin air, just taking another look at how we're using these wonderful things called magnets.
 
#21 ·
Newbie here but wanting to learn so here goes. Probable been talked about before but couldn't we hook up a modified alternator (with magnets) or very small generator to a dual shaft DC traction motor and have the output to the batteries controlled via a electrically controlled disconnect or maybe an electrically controlled clutch like that on a AC compressor between the generator and the DC. traction motor. The generator could be activated by the brake switch and/or electronically, say when the speed of the vehicle was above a certain speed and no juice was being sent to the traction motor? I've read that regen is difficult but not impossible with DC setups this would be a poor mans version, if you will, of regen. Well just some thoughts, curious of what others with knowledge might think.

Thanks
 
#22 ·
popeye2008!
Welcome! Regen is only challenging with series wound dc motors because of the optimum brush timing.If its advanced to be a "good" motor it will likely not be a great generator. Other types of motors (sepex,pm,ac) don't have an issue if their controller is setup for regen.(to my knowledge)Your idea would work no doubt,if someone wants to go through the work involved.(for regen) Barna:)
 
#23 ·
Norm!
Could you explain that experiment with the magnets in detail(instead of one holds up the other).If you do I'm willing to test it for you.I happen to have a few neodymium magnets of various sizes laying around (from motor and generator building experiments) and been playing with them maybe a little more than I should,but I can say as much as when you hold two of the larger ones in your fist (one in each hand) and you move your hands close if they are facing to repell one will turn around in your fist in an eye blink unless you are godzilla.This is in response to your comparison with a relay or transistor.Like I said I'm open for testing.If you google "museum of unworkable devices" and scroll down to magnet motors all the pictures you see will make you go why didn't I think of that? then read the explanations and it will(should) make sense why they don't work.Barna:)
 
#26 ·
Just for general info, I stopped and looked at the wind generators near Medicine Bow Wyoming back in the 80's. They had blades that were 300 feet long and computer controlled pitch of the blades to keep them rotating at a constant speed to generate 60 cycle current. The blades pitch was turned to be vertical to the wind if it exceeded 90 mph. Pretty impressive to see football field length propeller like blades going thump thump thump as they turned. Norm
 
#28 ·
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Look guys, what I'm proposing isn't that crazy. We know that magnets are a source of a constant amount of measurable force or energy, whatever you want to call it. The energy wouldn't be coming from nowhere, it would be coming from the magnets. The big difference is, the circuit would be geared to harness that energy instead of pitting its finite force in battery power against it. Regardless of what vocabulary you want to use, there is force there, a constant amount of force or energy, that can be used for something, just like a battery except it doesn't run down. There just has to be a better way of doing it all than what's been done for so long. After a century of runtime, I think some of the basic ideas behind electric motor systems could stand to be rethought along a few lines, that's all. But once again, it's not coming from nowhere, it's not infinite, and I didn't get the idea from the bloody internet. So far this is all from my head and the discussions I've had with others here and other places...
 
#36 · (Edited)
Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Look guys, what I'm proposing isn't that crazy. We know that magnets are a source of a constant amount of measurable force or energy, whatever you want to call it. The energy wouldn't be coming from nowhere, it would be coming from the magnets. The big difference is, the circuit would be geared to harness that energy instead of pitting its finite force in battery power against it. Regardless of what vocabulary you want to use, there is force there, a constant amount of force or energy, that can be used for something, just like a battery except it doesn't run down. There just has to be a better way of doing it all than what's been done for so long. After a century of runtime, I think some of the basic ideas behind electric motor systems could stand to be rethought along a few lines, that's all. But once again, it's not coming from nowhere, it's not infinite, and I didn't get the idea from the bloody internet. So far this is all from my head and the discussions I've had with others here and other places...
Energy = force * trajectory (vectors). constant force produces ZERO energy, if there isnt any movement on some trajectory. If you will push to the solid wall, you will give no energy to the wall. But if you wil pull the car and makes it move, you will give some kinetic energy to the movement of the car. This is important. Magnet doesnt radiate any energy, it is like a spring. It can pull or push something, byt it is imposible to create ANY machine that would be using magnets to constant energy production as it is impossible with springs. forget that magnet is any-way diffrent from springs, it is essentilly not.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/301/lectures/node58.html

Another way to think about it is that gravity is very much like magnetism. Magnets, and ferrous metals are drawn to a magnet just like everything is drawn to the earth. It is a force. You can't magically use gravity to get energy. You might argue that an object that is about to be dropped or descend in some manner has potential energy, but once it falls and stops, it is done. Gravity can't do anything more for you. Eventually you hit bottom. Then you have to put energy into the system to raise that object back up. Magnets are the same.

Granted you can turn magnets on and off, but that is just like turning gravity on and off. It doesn't gain you anything though.
There is one difference betwen gravity field and magnetic field and in my native czech language it is called "conservatism". No matter which closed trajectory you undertake in conservative field, when you return to your original position, you always ends with the same energy you have started with = closed trajectorries costs or gains zero eneregy. This does not apply to magnetic field, but does apply to electic fields. But as I understand it does not mean it is possible to create pepetual motion or anything like that.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/301/lectures/node59.html

sorry for my english.
 
#29 ·
i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you,everybody told edison he was nuts..and they all just KNEW that tesla was nuts..so by all means...soldier on.arguing the possiblities wont help.only the completed project will...just another insignificant opinion.:)
 
#30 ·
The important thing I'm trying to tell you is that in physics force and energy are two related but separate concepts. Force is measured in newtons, energy in Watt hours or Joules. They are not equivalent or exchangeable. It is not a matter of the name we put on it, there is a physical difference. The only energy you can get from a magnet is the same energy you bring into the system. I can see where you are coming from in thinking that a magnet gives a constant force therefore we should get constant energy from it, but that is only because you are confusing force and energy. All force does is transfer energy form one type to another. I don't want to keep arguing for arguments sake but this comes up a lot so it is worth resolving. Just do a thought experiment where force and energy are separate things and you will see what I mean.
 
#31 ·
Another way to think about it is that gravity is very much like magnetism. Magnets, and ferrous metals are drawn to a magnet just like everything is drawn to the earth. It is a force. You can't magically use gravity to get energy. You might argue that an object that is about to be dropped or descend in some manner has potential energy, but once it falls and stops, it is done. Gravity can't do anything more for you. Eventually you hit bottom. Then you have to put energy into the system to raise that object back up. Magnets are the same.

Granted you can turn magnets on and off, but that is just like turning gravity on and off. It doesn't gain you anything though.
 
#32 ·
Well, yeah pretty much. You talk about getting power from 'free' natural sources like wind and water, well gravity and magnetism are also forces of nature. In your analogy though, that magnet would be 'falling' for a century or two before it ever got close to hitting the ground. That's not a bad idea either - though we might not have the technology yet - a generator that makes money off the constant pull of gravity? It just seems impossible now, but technology is moving exponentially to the point where we don't know what the next year will bring let alone the next decade. We just have to be clever, and learn to not look at these 'law-binding' forces as working against us.
 
#34 · (Edited)
In your analogy though, that magnet would be 'falling' for a century or two before it ever got close to hitting the ground.
You have missed the analogy. In the analogy the magnetic force is analogous to the force of gravity. The point that the magnet stops creating movement(when the magnet has gotten as close as it is going to to the thing it is attracted to.) is analogous to when gravity stops creating movement because the object has had another force stop it. That force could be an updraft of air, it could be provided by a person's hand pressing up on it. It could be that the object has hit the ground.

You try to equate the time that the object is falling to the useful lifespan of a magnet.(100-200 years) That lifespan would have to be analogous to the useful lifespan of gravity, which is forever. The thing analogous to how long the bject is falling is how long it takes the magnetic object to either reach the magnet, or run into something between it and the magnet.

The rate that technology is progressing is noteable, but it will always work within the bounds of physics. There are certain truths to physics that can't be cheated.
 
#33 ·
Wind and Water have kinetic energy based on their mass and velocity. Magnetic and gravitational forces don't have any energy. Energy is what you need to power something down the road, you can use magnets to convert electrical energy into kinetic energy or use gravity to convert potential energy into kinetic energy (i.e. billy cart/soap box racer), you can even push the car yourself and convert the chemical energy in your food into kinetic energy but you don't get any energy from forces, you just convert it from one form to another.
 
#1,442 · (Edited)
i haven't read all the posts, yet. still working at it. however, i have point to make, which may be made in posts i have yet to read, but i think it worth stating.

wind and water can be used to power objects or to create power. and i think these are two really good examples to use because, like magnetic energy, we only had a limited understanding of how to harness these forces, in the early days.

i am a sailor. i have a really good uderstanding of these two particular forces. in the early days, sailing barges n the nile, wind force was understood much as some of the posts, i have read, understand magnetism. it was seen as a push, in the direction of the wind, but had to be opposed to go the other direction. so, they used square sails mounted forwards on their barges to sail against the river's current. this use of the wind only makes use of drag. then, they would use the rivers current to push their barges in the other direction. also using the force of drag.

the germanic tribes of the late migration age, noteably the vikings ( possibly others but the physical proof positive is stll not completely solidified yet ), were the fist to use sail design and balance, coupled with hull design, to use the power of wind and water in a different way, and truley sail upwind.

modern sailboats use these same priciples. sailing wind, the sail creates lift. lift pulls the boat upwind. but, it's not perfect and, without the opposing lift created by the keel/fin/underwater foil, the boat would be blown sideways.

however, by coupling the opposing lift forces of the wter and wind, forwards motion is created allowing the sailboat to move in opposition to the wind. not directly, of course. you can only sail to within 30 to 45 degrees of the wind. but you can sail up wind. yet, in the early days, wind and water were only seen as forces that could create power in one direction and had to be opposed in the other direction.

i see the understanding of magnetic force being looked at in this way. it is only useful in one direction then it has to be opposed. this is an antagonistc view of the forces of nature. the forces of nature, including magnetism, can, and will, be made to work for man, fully, when man stops viewing them as things to oppose and, instead, seeks harmony with them.

i think that martial arts is a good analogy of the kind of thought needed. in a movie, when two knights bring their swords together, in a fight, they push against each other, trying to force the other person's sword aside. this is a silly convention of TV land and real longsword combat does not work like that. if i strike to you with my longsword, and you try to push it aside, i will not waste my time and energy resisting you. i do what's called a change through. i use your energy against you and allow you to power my sword so that it moves to the opposite side of your sword ( where i thrust you tgrough ) and carries your sword off line. we call that opposing strength with weakness. we also oppose weakness with strength. it's not much different than the thinking that allowed man to figure ut how to sail up wind.

right now, you are viewing magnetism as opposing strength with strength. so, it works one way and has to be forced to a place to allow it to work in that exact same way, again. at least, these early posts are viewing it that way.

a magnet does not only push, it repells. it has the potential to work in both directions. realize that and work to find a way to utilize the dual nature of this force and you can create a self perpetuating cycle.

just my two cents.

one other point. springs are not a good analogy of magnets. magnets have a flow of force around them, moving between the poles. a spring is a piece of metal. by itself, it has no force. the metal is tempered in such a way that the molecular structure allows it to be deflected from it's original form but it has a memory of that form and returns to that form, once it is realesed from it's point of deflection. the force of motion, energy, of the spring, does not originate with the spring. it comes from, for instance, the finders used to squeeze it together. it takes a certain amount of energy to deform the metal. once released, the metal returns to it's original form, releasing the 'stored energy' imparted to it by the fingers. however, you could plsce a million springs on a table, together, and nothing at all would happen. you'd just have a bunch of pieces of metal lying on the table. dump a bunch of magnets on the table and see what happens. they possess force. springs do not.

using springs to describe magnets is like using balls to describe oranges. yes they have the same shape. they can even have the same color. however, balls are good to hit with a bat and oranges taste good. hitting an orange with a bat will never get you a home run and i'm not going to try to eat a baseball.
 
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