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Tesla's 'Brick' Problem

11K views 61 replies 14 participants last post by  Ziggythewiz 
#1 ·
Michael Degusta, who has a $5000 deposit on a Tesla Model S, uncovers a potentially serious flaw in the company's battery design that could leave inattentive Roadster owners with a $40,000 bill or a useful vehicle.

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#3 ·
Follow the warranty rules and you will have no problem. I have a Leaf and it is stated not to leave my vehicle for more than two weeks unplugged if you have less than a full charge. If you have an electric vehicle you NEED to USE it. So sad too bad to those that don't follow the rules. I use mine daily and will not have that issue. If you leave for an extended period you charge it up and leave it plugged in with a proper charge station. No extension cords or leaving it for months un-plugged while taking the slow boat to Japan. Sorry it is not a killer deal. If your not going to drive it don't buy it. Simple.

Pete :)
 
#7 ·
Follow the warranty rules and you will have no problem.
That's fine if the warranty is reasonable, not always plugged in when parked.

Sir, our gps records (you know we're tracking you, right?) indicate that you stopped at a 7-11 2 years ago and bought a twinkie without plugging in to charge. We have tracked your current battery issues back to that event and can, regrettably, offer you no warranty coverage.
 
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#12 ·
And I am quite sure you don't have the sophisticated instrumentation of the Leaf or Tesla. Knowing that it would be much easier to just shut off the whole thing. But if you need to have things Always ON then it is not such an easy issue. But in my opinion the whole article stinks of more negative press towards electric cars and much of the information is either BOGUS or very limited as to what ACTUALLY happened to cause the pack to go dead. In my testing of the LiFePO4 cells, low power draining does not kill the cell. I have cells at or nearly zero volts and they have been sitting there for at least 3 years and they are not dead. They all bounce back and work just fine. We even did a capacity check on one and it was like 98% at double the discharge rate of the cell. So I'd more say the whole article is jut BOGUS FEAR MONGERING.

FUD at its finest.

Pete :)
 
#15 ·
In my testing of the LiFePO4 cells, low power draining does not kill the cell. I have cells at or nearly zero volts and they have been sitting there for at least 3 years and they are not dead.
Remember that Tesla has shipped only Roadsters, and they all used 18650 laptop cells. Not modern LiFePO4 cells.

In laptop use the battery pack has a battery monitor to report on the SoC. Many have a series MOSFET that protects against over-current and over-discharge. So it's uncommon for the cells to experience full discharge.

I suspect that this story was written because the author needed something to write about / needed page hits. Not because it's a common problem, even among the very small population of Tesla owners.
 
#14 ·
I designed my truck knowing you don't want something to drain your batteries while parked. One thing they likely do is maintain temperatures of the pack even while parked. Heating and cooling takes a lot of energy.

Still, even though you can't idiot proof everything, something as critcal as dead pack prevention should take priority over everything. An electronic monitor that disconnects everything from the pack at a very low SOC is nothing to do.

I have construction equipment that I will replace the batteries in eventually and that's exactly my plan with them. I will NOT allow the batteries to be drained to death! If the SOC to gets below a certain point the battery will be disconnected, end of story.

A shunt trip breaker or something similar will do the trick. The contacts on these are manually operated, on or off. It functions just like a breaker but with a coil inside that when energized will open the contacts.
 
#18 · (Edited)
The owner's manual does have a warning about needing to charge once you hit 0%, or you will hurt the battery. It later mentions the battery draining at rest and says you should not leave it unplugged for over 48 hours with a charge under 15% and strongly recommends you leave it plugged in for long term storage.

It doesn't directly link the dead battery warning with the storage issue. Tesla could have saved a lot of bad press by giving the 5 individuals new batteries, and updating the software to prevent this from happening. They're obviously well aware of the issue if they're gps tracking customers to charge their cars without their knowledge.

Correction: The bit about permanently damaging the battery is not a warning, just a caution. There are apparently over 90 more serious things you should be worried about, along with around 30 other cautions to keep in mind.
 
#19 ·
Over all, I'm not surprised by the article and frankly I don't see what the big deal is. We knew from the start that there would be compromises, such as the risk of a battery not lasting much beyond 5 years if they used the 18650 cells.

If some one drove their $60k ford F350 4x4 diesel through a river and hydrolocked the engine, they too would likely have a void warranty. I think this is one of those RTFM moments if indeed there are half a dozen cases of 'bricked' cars. Besides, if you can afford a tesla, you can probably afford the battery.

The part about the car being completely immobilized seems a bit fishy to me however. If its true, I have no doubt that tesla knows a way to unlock the wheels but would rather not dispense that information. Then anyone with a piece of paper and screw driver might be able crawl under to get it - 'unstuck':cool:
 
#20 ·
Nobody's driven through a river though. If you left your car unplugged for 2 months, would you expect it to need 50% of it's cost in repairs?

The real issue isn't just rich people taking a $40-50K hit, it's the fact that every Tesla would have this issue if they don't fix it, even the ones designed for the 'commoners'.

The immobilized bit is obvious, if the motor is set to park, and there's no power to it, how would it get out of park? They hyped that up though because they're idiots and don't know how parked cars are usually towed.
 
#25 ·
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Nobody's driven through a river though. If you left your car unplugged for 2 months, would you expect it to need 50% of it's cost in repairs?

If you drained the oil from your ICE engine and then ran it until it seized up, would you expect a new motor for free.?


>The real issue isn't just rich people taking a $40-50K hit, it's the fact that every Tesla would have this issue if they don't fix it, even the ones designed for the 'commoners'.

There really is no such thing as a foolproof system. If you're enough of a fool to leave your car unplugged for months and not check on it despite being warned in customer orientation and in the manual and ignoring alarms the car gives, you don't really have a leg to stand on in a claim.
It turns out that the blogger who wrote the alarmist article is a long time business partner of the owner of the bricked Tesla:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1073289_tesla-battery-bricking-the-real-story-behind-the-post

I don't blame Tesla or Elon Musk in the least for saying "too bad" and I don't think it will affect future sales. There will probably be attempts to use it as a reason to deny further credits toward EV purchases anyway though.
 
#21 ·
Just to add to what you said, some might be uncomfortable with leaving something like a tesla plugged in for months at a time. I sure don't need nor have to leave my EV plugged in.

Dunno.....I can't afford one anyway so it doesn't mean much to me.:)
 
#23 ·
Depends on how they design the vehicle more than anything. If the vehicle has equipment connected to the pack while shut down then yes there's an issue.

As long as it's plugged in and power is on, with an acceptable power cord then supposedly it will be ok. Anything happens, breaker trips, GFCI receptacle shuts down, someone unplugs the cord etc, it could fail. And that's just BS for them to set this thing up like that.

Tesla is a novice auto company but should know better. With stunts like that they're going to take a beating when enough people get burned.

My beef is that it's totally preventable unless the cells they use self discharge. In that case there's no way around it. Prismatic cells, those common to EV DIY'ers are not like that unless damaged somehow.
 
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#26 · (Edited)
NISSAN recommends you use the following driving and charging habits, where possible, to help maximize the battery’s useful life:
. Avoid exposing a vehicle to ambient tem- peratures above 120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
. Avoid storing a vehicle in temperatures below −13F (−25C) for over 7 days.
. Avoid leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the Li-ion battery available charge gauge reaches a zero or near zero (state of charge) .
. Allow the vehicle and Li-ion battery to cool down after use before charging.
. Park/store your vehicle in cool locations out of direct sunlight and away from heat sources.
. Use the normal charging or trickle charging methods to charge the Li-ion battery and minimize the use of public Fast Charge or Quick Charger.
. Allow the battery charge to be below at least 80% before charging.
. Moderate driving.
. Use of ECO mode.
. NISSAN recommends charging the bat- teries using the long life mode unless the vehicle is going to be driven a long distance. See “Charging timer” in the “CH. Charging” section.
. If vehicle will not be used for long period of time:
— NISSAN recommends charging with long life mode.
— Charge once every 3 months.
 
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#29 · (Edited)
Direct from the TESLA OWNER MANUAL

Leaving the vehicle unplugged
Even when you’re not driving the vehicle, the Battery will slowly lose its charge. Therefore, when you’re not using the vehicle, you should leave it plugged in. However, situations may arise in which you must leave the vehicle unplugged for an extended time (for example, at an airport when travelling for a couple of weeks). If this is the case, it is your responsibility to ensure that the Battery does not become fully depleted. Charge the Battery to a maximum level before leaving it. Keep in mind that when the vehicle is left unplugged with a full Battery, the initial rate of decline can be significant. When fully charged, the Battery’s charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the Battery’s charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to approximately 5% per week. Over-discharge can permanently damage the Battery.
If for some reason, you are unable to keep the vehicle plugged in when it is not being used, it is up to you to preserve battery life by paying attention to the charge level and the temperature (see bulleted list below). If leaving your vehicle unplugged for more than 24 hours, follow these do’s and don’ts to avoid prematurely decreasing the life of your vehicle’s Battery:

• DO leave the vehicle plugged in whenever possible.
• DO maintain at least a 15% charge level in the Battery if leaving it unplugged for more than 48 hours.
• DO charge the Battery to a full charge before leaving it unplugged. This maintains the charge level needed to keep the Battery’s electronics operational. If storing for more than 15 days, it is strongly recommended that you keep it plugged in.
• DO NOT expose an unplugged vehicle to ambient temperatures below -20°F (-29°C) or above 120°F (49°C.

Use the vehicle’s Touch Screen to determine the charge level and temperature of the Battery. For details, refer to the Touch Screen Users Manual, provided in your owners package.

Storing your vehicle
If you plan to leave the vehicle unused for longer than 15 days, it is recommended that you leave the vehicle connected to the High Power Connector and select the ‘Storage’ charge setting using the Touch Screen. When you charge the vehicle using the Storage charge setting, the vehicle is automatically kept at a reduced charge level to optimize the life of the individual cells within the Battery. Keep in mind that the reduced charge level also reduces the vehicle’s available driving range. So remember to change the setting back to ‘Standard’ before taking the vehicle on an extended drive. For details on how to select the Storage charge setting, refer to the Touch Screen Users Manual, provided in your owners package.
 
#32 ·
When fully charged, the Battery’s charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the Battery’s charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to approximately 5% per week.
This part really concerns me. It must be really bad for the battery to be mostly charged if their storage mode holds it at 50 and leaving it full it actively runs itself down to 50.

Also, somewhere in the manual it said the BMS functions run periodically when it is plugged in to maintain them and their environment, but it seems from people talking that it actively runs all the time, so either the manual is wrong on that point, or these cells have a rediculous self discharge rate. Lead lasts longer, and certainly recovers better.
 
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#33 ·
Why be concerned. Follow the owners manual and you will not have an issue. If you truly follow the rules and have an issue I am quite sure the issue will be covered under warranty.

Seems that many think the TESLA is some back yard hack by the sound of things here and over at EVDL. Sounds like many here and there know more than they do. What BULL CRAP.

If you can't follow the rules you should not own one.
 
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