DIY Electric Car Forums banner

Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

66K views 85 replies 29 participants last post by  rochesterricer 
#1 ·
Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
 
#2 ·
Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .
 
#3 ·
that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .
It say's a 200KW controller, he's building a range car not another dragger!
 
#5 ·
I'm hoping he'll add "salt" to that list. With 200 kW and great aerodynamics the Insight would be a respectable Salt Flats car.
Nice. I like the plan for Blue Meanie too. Wayland really is an asset to the EV community. I couldn't take the "style" of communication between the guys on the NEDRA boards, but have the utmost respect for what Wayland does on asphalt, cement, and sand... ((thumbs-up))
 
#11 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:

SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L

Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.

~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.

He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.

At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.

If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.

Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.

my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage
They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.

With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.

- - - - - - - -

Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.

We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.

At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.

A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.

But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.
 
#12 ·
Damn it! All that work he is doing to the Insight and to the Blue Meanie is so damn interesting, I wish I had his resources or lived closer to him, I would donate my hours free of charge just to learn and be part of that!

I have to think of ways to raise funds/sponsorship to do a build like that!

Anyone have any ways? Grants?
 
#15 ·
In the initial report from Wayne it was indicated a 75Ah cell from Kokam was being used.

The closest match I could find on Kokam's site is a 70Ah rated cell ( SLPB-60460330H ) ... the specs on the 70Ah cell and link are in previous post.
 
#20 ·
are dow kokam selling batteries to diyers?

it seems strange that they would poor money into john's project then not sell their product to other garage converters.

their site seems to talk for paragraphs about how "amazing":p their product is, but there is no information on price.
 
#22 ·
I have a deposited down on a insight chassis, if there is any information or drawings you would like to share please feel free. I have started drawings in Google Sketchup the Thundersky pack model has a model of the insight on layer 1 that is to scale I don't know how accurate the insight model is. It does give you an idea of how big things are physically in comparison to the chassis.
 
#23 ·
Hello Everyone,

The Tesla does 245 miles on its 53 kWh pack - that's 216 Wh per mile. If the Kokam pack's 71.5 kWh was on board the Tesla, it would cover 331 miles. The Tesla's .31 cd makes it an areodynamic brack compared to the Insight's .25 cd., plus the Tesla pushes fat 225 section non LRR tires, too...this explains why it uses 216 Wh per mile. The EV1 was more areo than the Insight and achieved 167 Wh Wh per mile @ 65 mph and could travel up to 160 miles on 26.7 kWh (I personally got 145 miles range when I drove NiMH powered EV1s). My converted Insight will weigh about 200 lbs. less than the EV1, has the same efficient motor and just as efficent inverter, and has the exact size LRR tires and light weight wheels, so it will easily roll down the highway, only not quite as slippery as the EV1.

I am very good at building EVs that require very little juice to roll along (and go like stink) - Blue Meanie is a great example and gets very good range on very little kWh. With its lead acid pack at just 7.9 kWh it did ~40 miles @ 55 mph for about 185 Wh per mile. The Insight is far more areo than the 1200 but less than the EV1, thus the 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph projected efficiency.

It's pretty well covered at 'Wayland's Words'.

See Ya...John Wayland
 
#24 ·
I wish you the best of luck John.

I have enjoyed the great work you have done in the past.

But with the added weight ... and without aerodynamic improvements ... I still think 185 wh / mile at 65 MPH is a bit optimistic... possible ... but it leaves a small margin for head wind , slope, and efficiency losses between the battery and the wheels... all of which are likely to come up over a 350 mile trip.
 
#29 · (Edited)
There is nothing we can show the industry they don't already know. There are thousands of professional engineers working on EVs in big companies like GM, Tesla or VW. They are not stupid.

Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)... It's the same thing with my BMW also.

Let's just be a bit more realistic.

It's not very hard to build a purpose-built car which is good for a few quarter mile runs and which is beeing driven and serviced by people who know what they are doing. A completely different thing is to build a affordable car which works for everyone.

Just an example: Precise SOC determination in high performance EVs. I haven't seen a single one. It seems simple but if it has to work in all conditions and temperatures, measure 5 kW and 500 kW equally precise, it is a major development venture.

What I want to say... GM could easily build cars like we did but where's the point for a big OEM?
 
#28 ·
My impression from feedback at several EVents is that many of the "public" want to see a 5 person car with such range at the price of a compact car. They consider vehicles like the Insight impractical, not a "real" car. I would guess their reaction will be along the lines of "Yeah sure, you can fill up a tiny light car with barely room for two people with expensive batteries and get good range and performance, but what about a practical car for a family of five at a price I can afford?"
 
#30 ·
It took Tesla building the Roadster to catch the public eye and get the industry motivated to start building actual EV's. It's not a practical car, and the industry could have built something similar, but they lackd the vision and motivation. Bob Lutz as much as admitted that and the head of Toyota was motivated to restart the RAV4EV project after riding in a Roadster. We need people pushing the boundaries of speed and range in EV's so there is something to point to and say "this is what is possible". No vehicle meets the needs of all people, never will, but some good examples of what can be done are necessary. I'd much rather see something like the Solectria Sunrise getting incredible mileage from a relatively small pack but this project is the next best thing.
 
#32 ·
It took Tesla building the Roadster to catch the public eye and get the industry motivated to start building actual EV's. It's not a practical car, and the industry could have built something similar, but they lackd the vision and motivation.
Creating / encouraging public / consumer demand is a very worth while investment ... that is why there are $Billions spent on Advertising.

I see this project along the same kind of lines ... it isn't telling anyone up to speed in the field anything they don't already know ... but it is a way to address some of the common concepts some people have that act as barriers to them wanting to buy a BEV ... I think the Tesla did a similar thing along different lines.

When it comes to BEVs the car industry has not been leading the way ... they have been dragging their feet ... but at the end of the day ... supply and demand still rules ... If the consumer demands it ... someone will be willing to take their money and supply them a product.
 
#33 ·
My biggest problem with the industry is they aren't attacking the range issue the correct way. Since the batteries are still the most expensive part they should put more emphasis on getting the most out of those batteries, which means greater emphasis on aerodynamics and weight savings. The LEAF could have had a much better cd and could have been lighter, both of which would have increased it's range significantly. Good aerodynamics shouldn't cost any more to build than poor aero. Light weighting might cost more but it's probably cheaper than adding more batteries, and once the design is done and volume production kicks in the extra costs of lightweight design and materials will be reduced per vehicle.
 
#36 ·
My biggest problem with the industry is they aren't attacking the range issue the correct way. Since the batteries are still the most expensive part they should put more emphasis on getting the most out of those batteries, which means greater emphasis on aerodynamics and weight savings. The LEAF could have had a much better cd and could have been lighter, both of which would have increased it's range significantly. Good aerodynamics shouldn't cost any more to build than poor aero. Light weighting might cost more but it's probably cheaper than adding more batteries, and once the design is done and volume production kicks in the extra costs of lightweight design and materials will be reduced per vehicle.
They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.
 
#39 ·
They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.
^^^Pretty much everything he said.^^^

I think there will be more and more electric vehicles, in all the differing configurations, but the goal of the manufacturers (at least at this point) isn't to build the ultimate BEV, pure, electric car. The latest round of them proves this point - they're trying to make them more conventional, or at least more conventional appearing. Nissan even designed the motor bay of the Leaf to look like a traditional engine bay - on an economy car! That really speaks volumes about where their focus is. If you really think about what the companies exist for, you have to agree it's a smart move. They're publicly owned and traded companies, which means their primary focus is value for the shareholders (owners). The vehicles are a means of generating it. Maximum value dictates over all, not maximum benefit. Maximum benefit is a sales pitch.

As for Wayland's project: it's very important, even if the average person doesn't connect with it on a personal level. It's a halo car, just like a Corvette, a Viper, or a Tesla Roadster. Every person I have mentioned vehicles like WZ to seems more convinced with the potential and viability of EVs in general. I can't wait to be able to say this guy has a little Datsun that runs 9s, and an Insight that goes 350 miles! I can hear the "wow, I didn't know they could do that" replies now! Accomplishments like that help people believe in the technology. That is a huge battle in itself. I remember when using adhesives to put cars together was first mentioned - instant fear reaction, even though NASA was using it to build space vehicles!
 
#37 ·
The thing is I think there is already a substantial market of early adopters more interested in practical efficiency, and I'll bet most of the ones buying pure BEV's have a second vehicle, so hauling the family and all their junk is not a concern. Truth is that the early adopters are not the general public, and current production can't keep up with current demand. Even so I doubt the general public would care if the LEAF were a few hundred pounds lighter and had a lower cd, especially since that would translate into more miles per charge, which the general public is concerned about.
 
#38 ·
they are mostly just tiptoeing around the new technology of electric cars, thats why they are generally underpowered and small, and why those alleged plug in hybrids have appalling range.

i think what the ev industry really needs is a corporate sports car, something like the Nissan same battery and floor plan with a say 150kw -200kw motor and looks like a sports car, if you could do that and sell it for a similar price people will buy it. looks are the most important thing in selling a car.

who here wold honestly buy a leaf to drive to and from work every day? now who here would buy a small two seater with 150kw and 160km range to get them to work

both cars are essentially similar in build cost but one has a much broader market. and when you are building a corporate sports car you don't have to worry about how many vegetables and children it can carry.

Note: when i say corporate sports car i mean any cheep two seater that is made to look like but not necessarily perform like a sports car.
 
#41 ·
Hello Everyone.

From CroDriver:

>Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells...

No one, of course. However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles.

>or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere >else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)

CroDriver, maybe you need to see my post under the drag Bug thread...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile.

See Ya...John Wayland
 
#42 ·
...However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles...
Exactly. It's another battle in the war, won. I'm talking about "war" over misconceptions, fears, etc, not people or alternative technologies.


...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile...
Thanks for posting, and re-posting, that. Helps me keep my focus...
 
#43 ·
The thing is I think there is already a substantial market of early adopters more interested in practical efficiency, and I'll bet most of the ones buying pure BEV's have a second vehicle, so hauling the family and all their junk is not a concern.
I agree with the latter statement, but probably disagree with what is "substantial". You said earlier that high volume production would bring costs down. I don't think the volume required is attainable with just this segment of the market. It could be that it is large enough to get the manufacturers started, and as gas prices increase more the market will increase. It could also be that increasing gas prices will drive the economy into another recession leading to demand destruction, lower gas prices, and a decrease in demand for electric vehicles.

Truth is that the early adopters are not the general public, and current production can't keep up with current demand.
Yes, because current production levels are abysmal, nothing close to production levels of other cars, not because the number of early adopters is large. They could probably satisfy that market with a production level comparable to that of their most popular cars in less than one year. I suspect for example, that Nissan is not dedicating more of their production capacity to ev's because their other vehicle models are more profitable. Plus they likely want to see if any unforeseen issues crop up that cause a recall.

I think the "conversation on electric cars" has already moved to a larger sedan with 300 mile range. The Tesla did give proof of concept that an ev could go fast and far, and be reliable. I would guess that to many an Insight with an expensive battery pack is just a lower performance Tesla (long range but only two passengers and not much cargo space) that still cost way too much. Many can't afford to spend even the cost of a Volt, so they won't consider buying a BEV until they see a low cost sedan with 300 mile range, and a charging station infrastructure. So I guess it is a question of can the manufacturers get a foot up in the ev business selling to "early adopters" without loosing too much money, and have improvements in batteries happen soon enough, and gas prices stay high enough to expand the market. I don't expect significantly improved batteries in high volume production quantities for at least 8 years, and a lot of things would have to "go right" for that to happen. For example, a change in political leadership in two years could lead to loss of federal financial support for research in this area.

I get excited when I hear of new advances related to evs, but the above is my attempt at a more objective appraisal based on feedback I have gotten from people looking at my ev. Could be it is not a representative sample - NV is not the most open-to-change state. :D Myself, I think we will be forced to make some big changes in the future, but most of us won't do it until forced, which will make the challenge much greater. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds though!
 
#44 ·
My own experience, as a driver of a 2 seat EV with 50 mile max range, has been different than yours. Most people are enthusiastic and impressed, some have even said "why aren't automakers doing this?" They are obviously thinking if I can do this in my garage what could a real automaker do? Admittedly I live in an area more environmentally aware and open to new ideas than most. Ithaca has been described as ten square miles surrounded by reality. ;) Still in a country of 300 million it only takes a small percentage of the population to sell millions of EV's, and the more that are sold the more people are exposed to the reality of them and more demand is created. People who won't accept an EV until it costs the same as a Civic and goes 300 miles aren't realistic and aren't the target market, nor will they be for years to come. People who have more than one vehicle and put a premium on the environmental and political benefits of EV's are and will be the target market for some time. The economic argument doesn't make sense for any new vehicle, an efficient used ICE will win out for a long time, yet people still buy new vehicles. They also buy impractical two seaters and often pay a premium for a less useful vehicle just to get the impression of performance, (not necessarily the reality of it), because performance is "cool". Performance is cool but so is efficiency, more so in today's world, perceptions are changing.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top