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Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

66K views 85 replies 29 participants last post by  rochesterricer 
#1 ·
Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
 
#47 ·
I'll post a comment to subscribe to this thread, I've been reading it up to just after the start of April and haven't been here since John popped in to give us some information on what he was doing. Awesome to see a project done on this car. My conversion will be with the Insight as well with my main delay being funding and figuring out paying for the conversion and purchase cost of components and getting over the desire to put money into my mortgage to pay a chunk down to lower interest costs early in the game(bought my house last year). Since I'm not beginning my project right now, when the weather is nice, and I have no desire to do it through winter, I'm on track to convert an Insight next summer. While I wait, I will be watching progress very closely, this may be the first conversion of an Insight that is actually well documented that has someone behind it who supports the EV community and is willing to share details. Everyone else who has converted one, including everyone on EV Album seems to have stopped updating their information and doesn't respond to any emails, even though they are short and straight to the point. Oh well, but it is awesome to see some high energy density batteries used. Like John said, they aren't the highest Kokam has but they are still much higher in energy density than the LiFePO4 that I'll be using(roughly 20kwh worth, weighing mid-400 lbs) I'll cross my fingers for improvements in energy density from Winston/Thunder Sky, CALB/Sky Energy, or HiPower but won't put my project on hold. Currently looking at getting a good price on some older generation HiPower batteries, since the car is light and aerodynamic and my gas version doesn't seem to care much in efficiency at steady speeds when it has a 500 pound payload, still getting 70MPG on the highway at 70MPH with it, I know it will make a difference but battery weight hopefully won't have too huge of an impact on my range with the stock low rolling resistance tires.

If I get John Wayland's estimation of efficiency, I'll have 100 miles range, I don't really need that much though, I could live with half that but it would be convenient to drive for months at a time without firing up a gas car to go father. I'll still keep my current Insight as I drive 20,000 miles a year which includes cross country trips, so I'll own two Insights. Right now the donor cars are a little on the pricey side since the most fuel efficient mass produced gasoline car is in heavy demand considering gas prices are close to the highs of mid-2008, possibly this fall the hysteria will drop off and I can get one for my donor target price. I missed my chance for a $2000 one last fall and having trouble finding one with a bad hybrid battery or some other issue that I could still drive one back to Minnesota with for a reasonable price. Having a rust-proof body is priceless to me to, which is another reason I'd love to convert one. :)
 
#49 ·
There are several Hybrid drive trains that would make great Pure EV drive trains the GM dual mode hybrid is one example. If I can get my hands on one I will rebuild it to make a pure EV with 2 Remy motors in it, it has more than enough power for a car. This looks like the most viable option for it has enough power to make a fun EV. Toyotas Prius motors are not powerful enough in my opinion to go through the effort required. The SUV hybrids Toyota makes do look like they would be worth the effort also. I haven’t looked into the Leaf motor and transmission which someone here said Nissan will sell outright.
So to get an affordable power train you can go DC or secondhand AC. It is a matter of taste; I like the braking capacity of AC and BLDC motors, not for efficiency increase, but more for less ware on the mechanical braking system, which our drive trains add. Does anyone have contacts at Remy have them passed the economy of scale achieved through the Daimler GM hybrid drive train on to us DIY guys.
 
#55 ·
John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
 
#58 ·
Nice, thanks for posting that he has an update. I'm interested in his project as it is my donor vehicle as well. I'm not putting 350 miles worth of cells in mine though, unless some sponsorship comes along but there won't be one for me but I don't really need one to build something more powerful than stock, just sucks that the length issue prevents the Warp 9 from fitting and the AC50 is questionable. The Impulse fits and the 220v Kostov is a similar size, I'll take the 9"HV Kostov over the Impulse as it looks to be the more efficient option and also lets me give me more torque and push higher revs.
 
#62 · (Edited)
congratulations with starting this build, John.
thanks for lots of info here and in your blog


numbers looks good - real challenge is to prove it in real life, and i have no doubts - you can
------------------
target converted weight - 2850lbs [1292.7kg]+driver 70= 1363kg

cd=0.25; frontal area 1.9m2
roll.res.c=0.007
drivetrain effy: contr.(inverter) motor,trany -85%

at 60 mph power required:
air drag - 5.6kw
roll.res - 2.5kw
dr.tr.eff.losses: 85%- 1.4kw ( 2kw-80%)
total power required = 9.6 kw

71.5kWh. /9.6kwat60mph=7.45hx60=447mi

71.5kWh. /09kw at60=7.9hx60=477mi
71.5kWh. /10kw at60=7.2hx60=420mi
71.5kWh. /11kw at60=6.5hx60=390mi
71.5kWh. /13kw at60=5.5hx60=330mi
71.5kWh. /15kw at60=4.7hx60=286mi

accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw

------------------

thanks again for shearing details and for good info, John! please keep us updated on details and testing
i believe 400 mile, 8-hour trip ahead of us - soon : )
good luck
 
#63 ·
accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw
Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?
 
#67 ·
i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed
 
#68 ·
i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine
fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed
I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.

The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.
Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:

  • no net change in OEM aerodynamics
  • With 0 MPH winds constant
  • @55 MPH steady
  • @60 degrees F constant
  • @14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
  • 0% Relative Humidity
  • the estimated final weight ~2,850
  • Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
  • no slope up or down.
  • 0.007 Crr Constant
  • 71.5kwh usable battery output.
  • 100% DoD
  • Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
  • final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.


He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.
 
#69 ·
I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic as I 20kwh in mine would yield 125 miles on a perfect day but I could probably figure 100 miles(80% max) fairly safely on a fairweather day on the highway and be fine if the right care is taken. I'm really oversizing for more voltage to allow for better power, longer useful battery life, and better cold weather performance with less heating but I'll take the range. There is a surprising amount of space in the back where that aluminum battery box is, where the fuel pipes and fuel pump are, where all of the air cooled ducting, and IMA electronics sit to where I don't even think I'd need to put any under the car where the gas tank would be removed from for modest range. 71.5kwh will be a challenge as he said it would definitely be easier with the cells he is using versus what most of us use and can afford.

Good luck John!
 
#70 ·
I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic
I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.
 
#72 ·
I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.
 
#73 · (Edited)
I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.
true, winter - not best time for best results
especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make

just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok

------------

meanwhile, there is good news for EV community. Despite economy down, China dealing with range anxiety - progress of production EVs, its range, didn't stopped - Russia opening huge Lithium butt. plant; BYD e6 EV with 400 km (248 miles) range (not 186 mi -2011 spec) going to be sold in 2012 in over 20 BYD dealerships in Ukraine (in 2011 BYD had 13 dealerships - nearly in every major city of Ukraine )
http://www.byd.ua/ua/vehicle/e6.htm
 
#78 ·
Well ... Wayland was able to pull out a bit over 400 pounds in the strip down part of the conversion.

So ~800 Pounds or ~360 kg to work with.

If you are willing to tone down the power to a bit more like the OEM acceleration ... I think there is room for lower ranges that would still be reasonable for many people without the suspension upgrades ... although those suspension upgrades might be wanted anyway ... even if the weight is not more than OEM.

For example ... You could use a EMRAX motor ... give you a peak for acceleration of about ~60kw from only a ~12kg Motor ... There are a variety of controller options ... but should be able to do it easily under ~10kg ... even if you eat another ~40 kg or so in cooling, wires, battery boxes,etc ... you still have ~300kg or ~660 lbs to use for batteries without need for the suspension upgrades ... although it might not be a bad idea to do anyway.

At 100Wh/kg battery ... and there are plenty of others out there better than that ... ~300 kg is about ~30kwh of battery capacity potential ... in the light weight aerodynamic Insight Body that is about ~150 miles or so per charge... at ~150 wh/kg and the same ~300kg , you're up to about ~45kwh , or about ~220 Miles per charge.

Wayland is going beyond this of course ... he is going for much more than 60kw of peak acceleration ... I think he's aiming more for about ~137 HP ( which is about double the OEM ) ... and he is aiming for about ~71kwh of battery capacity ... but not everyone would need both the increased power and that much range ... so others might not have to push it as far as he is aiming for.
 
#80 ·
If you don't need as much weight as they do, aka not a huge pack that's quite as expensive and aim for closer to 100 miles of range with a 20kwh pack you'll be around 400 pounds for the battery. You'll pull the weight of everything in the IMA box and the exhaust out, which won't weigh as much as you might think(It's in Wayland's vlog). At that point you can use the Matiz springs but that might not be enough spring, although I'm going to give it a shot when I convert mine since I have the springs already. If that doesn't work, people have fitted cut Miata springs(recent post in the Matiz thread), and there was another thread with cut Aveo springs. With the extra battery weight, cutting the springs would either be reduced or eliminated depending on how the springs handle the weight. You can always experiment by putting the springs on and then adding weight to the car where you are going to put it, water softner salt bags or really anything with the appropriate weight placed in the right spot should give a rough idea of how much the car will sink into the suspension. ..that's if you are asking in order to convert yourself with less battery weight(which I would recommend as 350 miles is more than most average gasoline cars go before they get filled).

Of course, Wayland's much higher weight has me curious how they are going to handle it too, we'll hopefully get some info in a future update. Hoping we get another update soon.
 
#81 ·
Wayland's conversions are unique. They are extremes and they use high end components that are made available by sponsors.

The battery pack has very high energy density compared to the prismatic cells that we have access to. For the same weight, a prismatic pack would yield ~45kWh, compared to what…~72kWh with the Kokams?

The weight reductions also are potentially better for Wayland with a more powerful motor that doesn't require the transaxle to be retained, whereas it's likely the everyday converter would retain the transaxle (and its weight, say 70lbs?). Although as someone said, you could use those small PMDC motors with high power density and maybe it would be a wash in weight savings.

I'm making a generality of course, but compared with the Insight, other cars can be overladen with less safety issues. Remember that the Insight is composed of a lot of aluminum in critical areas. Aluminum doesn't bend as much as steel when overstressed. Again the payload is 400lbs. That means after two 160lb people get in, that leaves 80lbs of payload room. Even with ~330lbs of weight savings, you would probably be better off adding some extra support, unless you don't go over a 400lb battery pack.

I'm just saying that it would be great to have access to some of the insight (forgive the pun) that Wayland and team accumulate during the build. It would be a boon to converters.

Can't wait to hear an update from Wayland.
 
#82 ·
"The battery pack has very high energy density compared to the prismatic cells that we have access to. For the same weight, a prismatic pack would yield ~45kWh, compared to what…~72kWh with the Kokams?"

We have the numbers from Wayland. 71.5kwh and 1080 pounds(491kg). 71500/491=145.6wh/kg. Compared to prismatic cells a little over 100wh/kg, making a 20kwh pack around 400 pounds.

About the transmission, I've held it and it doesn't feel like it's 70 pounds. I also opened doors for someone carrying an Insight transmission down the elevator, through the halls, and out to his car and he didn't make it seem like it was a task at all to carry it. I can't really put a number on it but I'd say it's slightly under 70 pounds, felt like the 50-60 pound range but that's just a guess, I could be stronger than I think I am but for a transmission, it feels like it's as light as it could be. I'll be keeping it for my conversion and hoping I don't shatter it with extra torque and HP, if I do, I'll have to be more careful with the second one.

"I'm just saying that it would be great to have access to some of the insight (forgive the pun) that Wayland and team accumulate during the build. It would be a boon to converters.

Can't wait to hear an update from Wayland."

I agree, can't wait.
 
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