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Schism Hybrid Hot Rod (the Tailfeather Project reincarnated)

177K views 451 replies 18 participants last post by  toddshotrods 
#1 ·
So, some of you may remember my Tailfeather Project, which was suppposed to be a stablemate for the Inhaler. Well, a lot has happened. One, the Inhaler no longer resides in my personal "stables". It is now a joint venture (I'm still majority owner) between myself and my partner Alex (Columbus Idea Foundry). Two, I kind of lost interest in my Honda, and couldn't see committing myself to a project halfheartedly. We are developing a line of kit cars and products, based loosely on the Inhaler, and the first prototype kit is my personal car - giving me a project to express myself with, now that the Inhaler is all grown up and has moved out. :D

The hybrid concept of the Tailfeather Project is going to live on in my kit. In fact, that very Honda powertrain is being transplanted into the back of the car, and electric drive is moving up to the front wheels. This is literally the reincarnation of that project, with a twist. Without further ado, here is Schism (the art anyway :)):

As you can see it has more than a passing resemblance to the Inhaler, and the art is based on old Inhaler art. This isn't a dream, I am ordering parts and materials now, and we intend to have the car at least together in March, and fully functional by summer.


Instead of relying on electric for racing power, and ICE as a sort of range extender, this car will rely on ICE for race power, and electric will be the supplement. I haven't done any calculations yet to determine what kind of range it will have, but it will be possible to drive on pure electric. The ICE will eventually be turbo, and ethanol and/or gas burning - we're shooting for 800hp. I would like to have about 200hp of electric power up front, but that will depend of what type of motor I end up with; completely undecided on that right now. Everything will be there ready for the motor, when I find it. I am building the front suspension with Honda FWD wheel bearing hubs, and I have the diff, so it will just be a matter of coupling the motor to the diff. Right now I am planning on direct drive, and gearing it for speeds up to maybe 35mph. I'm keeping the speed range of the electric drive low now to have brisk acceleration, without a large motor. That will allow me to launch with AWD, when racing, and continue to accelerate with turbo ICE power. It also helps with lag issues, and allows me to run a bigger turbo.
 
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#2 ·
In the beginning there were two Jeg's seats, a Speedway track nose, and a Toyota Celica GTS rear differential...

It's hard to see in this blurry cell phone pic (forgot my camera), but the input shaft is forward, inside the track nose, at the front of the car. The motor will be mounted on top of the diff, and drive it via a belt, chain, or gear set up. That will allow me to fine-tune the ratios, and the stacked arrangement saves space under the hood. Those who have been following my antics long enough may remember that from a previous bright idea I had for building a second EV hot rod. One reason I love pursuing ideas is I usually end up using the designs somewhere, someday.

After seeing the seats together, taking some measurements, and building the *cockpit* a gazillion times in my head for the last eight hours, I think one of the regular production Jeg's roll cage kits is perfect - it's for a 49-53 Anglia/Thames!?! - so I may be able to order it and swing by and pick it up next week (Jeg's main retail store is right around the corner from our shop). That and a few sticks of square tubing and I'll have a chassis soon. ;)
 
#3 ·
Picked up the roll cage kit from Jeg's today and did a quick mock-up to check the dimensions. A couple need tweaked, but it's going to be nice. I need to make some final decisions on the frame design so I can order the steel for it, and start building a hot rod. :)

The Appleton steering rack also came today, and it is positively sinful! Very well made, and extremely quick - it's 1.5 turns lock-to-lock! :D Better not sneeze! :eek:
 
#4 ·
Nothing major today, I just got the cage main hoop and halo tweaked a little, which makes the cage fit together much better. The bottom of the main hoop tucks in to the width of the (forthcoming) frame rails, and the halo is a bit narrower in back, which lets it hit all the way up on the main hoop.




Here's a close-up of my little rack, and the front differential that the electric motor will drive.

A pause to celebrate the New Year, and next we purchase the rectangular tubing for the frame, and start building...

Happy New Year guys! :D
 
#7 ·
Happy New Year! :D

I'm not going to spend a lot of time on art with this project (like I did with the Inhaler) but needed one quick revision to check something. To achieve the desired body-to-roof ratio, and make sure that average-sized people can fit inside the kits, I needed more body. Rather than vertically stretch the body, I decided to add rocker panels, which are rolled under the tub a bit. The original Model Ts have running boards which extend down from the body (and to the fenders, of course), and roll out a bit. This is an artistic swipe at that, which keeps the distinctive shape of the shallow bucket body intact, but gives me enough surface area. The real shapes and details will be worked out as the car is built, according to the real needs, but this is probably close.
 
#8 ·
I know it's not your cup of tea around here, but we got the drivetrain pulled from the donor (the former Taileather Project). Now, we're laser focused on getting Schism on all fours next month. I'm still searching for motors for the electric front drive. I need an immediate solution for right now to get everything sorted out, and need to figure out what I really want up there.

DIYEC member CT Freeman (white EV Fiero-based concept) came out to help yesterday, and saw a wide open, liberated, engine compartment at this point - ready for an electric conversion. :)



 
#10 ·
How many projects are going on here?;)...
Haha! :D They're building up, but only because I have such a great team beside me. Our new female team member worked ten straight hours with me yesterday, and worked as hard as I did. ;)

The Inhaler is a company project now, so not really my burden, other than design and project supervision. Schism is mine, and I still plan to build Scratch, so I actually have two personal projects.



...It's good getting the oily bits ripped out. Is that the engine that is going in the back of Schism?
Yup, that's Schism's engine now. I can't wait to get all that crap cleaned up - yuck! It'll stay clean from here on, because I'll actually be able to reach everything and see when something's leaking.

A guy on another forum posted this link - pretty cool, and fairly similar to the basic concept we have.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Now that the donor car is pretty much stripped, we're back to the chassis. We only worked on it for a bit today, but got the main hoop and halo bar fit and tacked. The A-pillar bars, dash and seat brace, and braces down into the front and rear frame rails are next.


If you're wondering what's up with the wooden fixture, it's because we're also developing processes and techniques for educational purposes. The slots for the frame rails are CNC-cut and the fixture is leveled and really stable. The idea actually came from the AME SuperCar chassis kits, and the illustration they show of how it can be done with plywood and pine strips. We're not selling unwelded chassis or wooden fixtures; we just used the technique to demonstrate how modern technology can be combined with old school techniques in manufacturing. We're getting ready for an event with Ohio Department of Education in March and will pitch this as an example.

After this vehicle is on its wheels we plan to start fabricating a monster of a steel frame table for production.
 
#15 · (Edited)
In NHRA it's 6x6x.125 (1/8th)", I do remember seeing .250" thick somewhere, but can't remember which sanctioning body. My rule books are at the shop, so I can't look to see.

Anyway, to your question, the steel pads are for attaching cages to uni-body, sheet metal, chassis. It's because the sheet metal would fatigue and/or the cage tubes would punch through in a roll over crash. I used the pads on C.T. Freeman's Fiero cage, because it was mounted to the sheet metal "space frame" chassis. With factory full-framed, and aftermarket tube framed, vehicles NHRA and most (all?) rules insist that the cage be welded directly to the frame. In the case of vehicles where the main frame members are narrower than the cage hoops you can use tubular outriggers to extend to the hoop mounting points.

I designed these frames specifically for a roll cage. That center trapezoidal main box is to create, with the main cage bars, a sort of cell for the occupants. Then, the front and rear frame rail locations were determined to tie the suspension systems into that cell. There will be a lot of triangulation, up and down, front to back, and side to side.

EDIT:
IIRC, the NHRA spec for the plates is actually .118" thick. You start with thicker material to compensate for it thinning out when it stretches (e.g., forming the plates around the contours of the floor), bending cage tubes (outside wall gets stretched thinner). The cage tubes similarly start with .134" wall tubing (for mild steel) which is over the spec (I'll fill that in here later, when I get to the shop and look at the rule book).
 
#19 · (Edited)
Great start! A perimeter frame is a very adaptable platform to develop into a custom vehicle.

I have owned a chassis fabrication fixture for over 40 years. I just got rid of it last year when I retired. (sent it to the scrapper, no one wanted it.....).

It was 16 feet long and built out of 8" I-beams set 34 inches apart with 6 inch channel cross-members. It was LOW to the ground and had 4 scaffold caster wheels.

It was painted machinery grey with the top flanges unpainted. The beem centerlines were scribed and center punched for easy layout and measuring.

It had holes drilled in random places for attachments and you could tack weld things where ever you needed for extra brackets.

Over the years, It performed it's magic on many, many vehicles, both new builds and crashed racecars to be straightened.

Don't go flimsey or cheap!

Miz
 
#20 · (Edited)
Great start! A perimeter frame is a very adaptable platform to develop into a custom vehicle...
Hey Miz, thanks! ;) It's shaping up pretty well. It's a production-oriented design, and I'm testing the ability of moderately skilled workers to build them. The two that did most of the work on this chassis, so far, have natural skills, but practically no experience. The results are fantastic! I did step in on a couple critical areas, but those will be done on machinery, with dedicated fixtures, in regular production. I want them to learn the old school ways of doing things first - by hand, with patience. I also want them to have an understanding of what the machines are actually doing for them, not just be button-pushers.



...I have owned a chassis fabrication fixture for over 40 years...

...It was 16 feet long and built out of 8" I-beams...

...Don't go flimsey or cheap!

Miz
I have a penchant for over-thinking, over-engineering, and over-building, things - so no concern there! :D It's going to be a monster, that's for sure! Originally, I had planned for a massive, heavy-wall, rectangular-tube, main frame, with a .500" steel plate on top, with a grid pattern cut in it for layout work, and drilled for fixtures. After checking out a conversation on a hot rod forum, with some of the top hot rod builders, I am leaning away from the solid-top, table, construction, towards an open design. Probably still rectangular tube construction, but I do love I-beam-based fixtures!

My chassis will be very similar to what they're building, and the open fixture designs allow you to work all through the center of the chassis, positioning and tacking crossmembers, braces, gusseting, brackets, etc. The other feature that is becoming more common is increased height - for the same reasons. Depending on what they're building, and personal/shop preferences, the heights seem to be in the range of 2-3ft high. Our current wooden fixture is 13" high and solid - it would be nice to have another foot, and better access in the center...

Another reason I plan to build an absolute monster is this first one will really be a development fixture. It will need to do a lot of things, accurately, and without excess effort. It is going to have rotisserie attachments that allow us to pull a chassis out of the fixtures, straight up into the rotisserie and weld it completely; plus some other interesting features. When we swing into full production mode, there will be two dedicated fixtures just for these chassis. That process will be more conventional where fabricators lay out and tack a chassis on the fixture, it gets pulled and moved to the welding room, where welders finish weld them on separate rotisseries. Then back out to assembly...

Work resumes this afternoon. I want to get the A-pillar bars cut, fit, and tacked in; the seat and dash bars tacked in. That may be a bit much for a half day, considering the fact that I am teaching more than working, but it's the goal.
 
#21 · (Edited)
We did work today, but I slowed the agenda down quite a bit. I'm teaching a couple of the Team members metal fabrication as we build Schism, and I'd rather take extra time to make sure they learn, understand, and develop good skills and habits. We got the A-pillar bars mostly cut and fit, but will finish them Wednesday.



This is representative of the quality of work they're doing - as they're learning. When we first started the chassis, I stepped in on the really challenging areas; tonight, I watched in amazement as one of the Team members carved notches in the tubing like she had been doing it for years. :)
 
#22 ·
Nice tubing fit! Thanks for the answer on the pads (BTW it's 1/4 inch thick for Land Speed.).

Did the team member use a hole saw to notch the tubing, or was it a hand grind?

As a guy that cuts and welds metal but is definitely still learning I really enjoy reading your threads and learning. How are you making sure everything stays square and level? Is the rotisserie just for ease of access, or will you try to do the welds on the top sides that way? That I'm aware cars are generally built with the wheels down the whole time, is it a hot rod thing to spin the chassis with a rotisserie?
 
#23 ·
Nice tubing fit! Thanks for the answer on the pads...
Thanks David, and np. ;)



...Did the team member use a hole saw to notch the tubing, or was it a hand grind?...
The two that have been working on the roll cage wanted to learn metal fabrication, so I am helping them develop good hand-eye coordination, and tool skills, with good old-school hand grinding. The tools of choice are a 4-1/2" right angle grinder with cut-off, grinding, and sanding discs; a couple Sharpies, and a tubing notch contour gauge - I cheat and use that ;-). I mark what I want them to cut, give them some instructions, and let them go at it. Both are learning fast, and the young lady I mentioned previously has really awesome tool skills. She has worked with her hands and with tools before, she just never did this type of metal fabrication.

We did use a metal miter saw to cut the straight front and rear rails, and I plan to slowly introduce them to the more advanced tools and machinery around the shop, including a tubing notcher and (eventually) even using a manual mill and fixtures to cut super precise notches. When we really get into serious production, I think most of this stuff will be CAD/CNC.



...How are you making sure everything stays square and level?...
The wooden fixture was carefully leveled, and is checked frequently. We're using plain old levels, squares, plumb bobs, tape measures and straight edges, to make sure it's going together square and level. That simple wooden fixture is the key. It positively located the foundation (the frame rails) and everything follows relatively easily. We notched the halo bar, clamped it in place, and checked it - perfectly level the first time. That's because we eyeballed it, measured up from the frame rails on each side, marked it, and fit the halo bar to those marks - it naturally followed the level frame. Ditto on the A-pillar bars. I measured what I wanted on one side, duplicated it on the second side and it's following the level frame perfectly.

Another thing, on this particular car, is the suspension pick-up points are going on after the chassis is welded up. I'm doing some things on this car that won't be on the production cars, and will have special fixtures that mount to the chassis and locate the suspension pick-up tabs and brackets. That means we'll have a second chance to correct any discrepancies - which I don't plan to have.


...Is the rotisserie just for ease of access, or will you try to do the welds on the top sides that way? That I'm aware cars are generally built with the wheels down the whole time, is it a hot rod thing to spin the chassis with a rotisserie?
Yes, the rotisserie is for ease of access. It's because tube frame and space frame chassis have so many angles and hard to reach areas. Even though a good welder can weld in nearly impossible situations, they'll be able to maintain the quality longer if the part moves more than they contort. On a serious race car, with tons of small triangulated areas, a rotisserie could be a must-have item.



...As a guy that cuts and welds metal but is definitely still learning I really enjoy reading your threads and learning...
Thanks again, that's a nice compliment! ;) I get as much, or more, out of knowing that I have helped someone else as I do from the work itself. Seeing my team members learn and grow, and receiving comments like yours, keeps me going when I'm a little burned out, and gives me the motivation to even begin sometimes.
 
#24 ·
That is such a nice set up and excellent work from your team.:)

Really makes me want to be able to do some work on mine. I had some thoughts but need to get them on paper somehow.:D
 
#25 ·
That is such a nice set up and excellent work from your team.:)

Really makes me want to be able to do some work on mine. I had some thoughts but need to get them on paper somehow.:D
Thanks Woody! :) One step at a time buddy, you'll get back to it. I've been taking baby steps towards this point for the last three years myself. I sold my shop because it felt like a prison sentence, and slowly worked my way back up to having this one. The Inhaler Project's studio is much more than just a shop, and I am squarely in my element - providing design, knowledge, and experience to help others; with a better plan for profit to boot.

Maybe you can find an apprentice, who can help you organize and document your thoughts and processes. The young lady on my team has enough experience and common sense to question me when something I say doesn't make sense, yet she's learning a lot from me. As much as I love doing custom vehicles, the experience of helping them learn and grow is priceless.
 
#26 ·
Cheers Todd.:)
I have just returned from my referal interview to a local Arts On Prescription project. I am hoping that attending sessions there doing creative will help both unlocking the skills and raising the confidence.

They do fine art, ceramics, textiles, woodwork, gardening, photography (digital and old school), creative writing and some other things I think. No black smithing:D or air brush training though, I might find out if they can help with the air brush technique if I bought an air brush kit to use there.

Their wood shop is quite good and some of the furniture they have made is really very good. I was trying very hard not to 'assess it' for marking.
Quite stressful getting that urge and being in the company of a 'class'. I'm not sure I will do the wood work yet as I could feel the anxiety rising while I was there.
I think I will start with the art class to get my hand in.

They do 6 weeks sessions, one day a week, in each subject as desired and subject to availability, for 6 months. After that I may volunteer to work there, possibly in the woodshop if it has all been sucessful.

I am quite anxious but I am also looking forward to it.:)
 
#27 ·
Cheers Todd.:)
I have just returned from my referal interview to a local Arts On Prescription project. I am hoping that attending sessions there doing creative will help both unlocking the skills and raising the confidence...

...I am quite anxious but I am also looking forward to it.:)
Sounds great Woody - you always have a good plan! :)
 
#28 ·
Todd,
Where your round tube meets the top face of the square tube do you have a spreader plate welded between the two?

I assume that the open ends of the square tube will be capped off but is there anything else to take loads to the underside of the square or are you just using the vertical sides of the square tube.

I am drawing/sketching frame rails at the moment and have been working on the basis of drilling a round hole right through the square tube and then passing the round through it and welding top and bottom (and teh sides if the tubes are the dime dimensions) with a welded disc to cap the bottom of the round tube. Over kill? Less strong? Unnecessary work?:confused:
Cheers.
 
#30 ·
Todd,
Where your round tube meets the top face of the square tube do you have a spreader plate welded between the two?

I assume that the open ends of the square tube will be capped off but is there anything else to take loads to the underside of the square or are you just using the vertical sides of the square tube.

I am drawing/sketching frame rails at the moment and have been working on the basis of drilling a round hole right through the square tube and then passing the round through it and welding top and bottom (and teh sides if the tubes are the dime dimensions) with a welded disc to cap the bottom of the round tube. Over kill? Less strong? Unnecessary work?:confused:
Cheers.
NHRA rules specify that the tubing be welded directly to the frame. Although I really like your idea, it would mean getting engineering approval for varying from the *ordained" path :rolleyes:, so I am trying to stick as close to the rules, with Schism, as possible. Those cars have flipped and rolled, hit the walls, etc, and held together, so anything more is probably overkill - not that that's a bad thing (at least in my book)! :D The Inhaler is going to need engineering analyses, documentation, and approval to run on sanctioned race tracks because I'm doing so much stuff *my way*. I just wanted Schism to be sort of universally accepted.

On your method: I think I would not pass the round tubing through the lower wall of the square tubing. That way it wouldn't be totally dependent on weld strength (not that that's a bad thing) and would have to physically rupture the steel tubing to completely fail. With it welded on top, as per the sanctioning rules, the weld has to fail, and the tubing has to shear through two sections of steel tubing (.120" wall, in my case), to completely fail. To really be catastrophic, for the passengers, it would seem that at least two corners, if not all four, would have to fail utterly, for the cage to collapse on them.

Yup, I am going to cap the ends of the rectangular tubing, and will add a central rib that extends into the tubing to add a little extra suport to the roll cage bars. I'll probably plug weld that on the other sides of the tubes. Except for the weight penalty, a little piece of I-beam would be nice in there. :)



After a financially induced break from EVs..... Subscribing. :D
Well, welcome back! :D Pull up a chair, or grab some goggles and gloves, and get dirty! :D
 
#32 ·
Cheers Todd, I'm not racing so rules don't matter in the same way. I would like it to be survivable in a roll over at speed or if it is sideswiped by a truck though. :)
Gotcha. Building to conform to rules can be a pain sometimes. I'm looking forward to doing a project, someday, that I can just do whatever I feel like doing - probably Scratch.
 
#33 · (Edited)
A few more pieces, here and there, and this puppy wil be ready to weld up! We're going to put the seat brace in, and a couple supports down into the front and rear rails from the main hoop and A-pillar bars, just to keep everything exactly where we want it when it comes out of the fixture.

The awesome team member I have been ranting and raving about finished up the A-pillar bars tonight. I just poked my head into the process every so often to see how she was doing, and answer her questions/offer suggestions. They fit perfectly... :) Another member did the seat mount, and the video guy was back shooting again. He said he's going to try to shoot at least once a week now.

Because I refuse to be normal, my suspension pickup points will be done off the fixture, and mocked up at ride height, with steel fixtures that fit on the frame rails. I'm doing a pretty radical race suspension setup and need to get it down on the floor to make some final decisions.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I'm trying to keep the focus here on the actual build, and not so much art and design, like the Inhaler Model E's thread, but will have a little art to guide the way, here and there. The art that the Schism rendering is based on is for the kits. It dawned on me today that I never lowered it from the standard production ride height, to my ride height (3-4", f-r). I did that and also, replaced the side exit exhaust tips with air intakes for the radiator and intercooler, channeled the exhaust out the back, and added the rear cage bars.


We're back to work on it next week, after a week off to work on the Model E. The plan is to get the chassis off the fixture soon, and start skinning it with bodywork.
 
#35 ·
I find it a great help watching how you are setting up and progressing the build.

I have been setting mine up based on the wheels, motor and transmission system with a box for the pack location.
Seating has always been an aside in the set up in the past with the idea I will make seats to fit.:rolleyes:

You are building up with the seats in place and I guess I should get some seating made up at some point to work the chassis around.

I am currently washing my pile of Lego Technic to build a scale model of the trike to then draw from.:D
 
#36 ·
I find it a great help watching how you are setting up and progressing the build.

I have been setting mine up based on the wheels, motor and transmission system with a box for the pack location.
Seating has always been an aside in the set up in the past with the idea I will make seats to fit.:rolleyes:

You are building up with the seats in place and I guess I should get some seating made up at some point to work the chassis around...
The Inhaler Model E was all the way on the other extreme, even of your method with your trike - I concentrated on the body first, then started figuring out what would fit under it for a drivetrain (which led my to EVs), then looking for somewhere to fit in it myself! :D

Schism is being built this way (occupants-out) because it is painfully obvious that the average person wouldn't be too crazy about stuffing themselves in a no-compromise race car, so kit sales would likely suffer unless I designed purposely to accommodate normal people. As you point out, I have been building around those two seats from the beginning. The rack & pinion was the first actual purchase, but the seats (2nd purchase) were the first thing in the shop. That was to force me to build the car around them.

I wanted to cut that cage down to just a few inches over the seat backs so bad!!! Done my way, the seats would have dropped in between the frame rails and the cage snugged right down over them. That would have also required narrower seats and a more radical layback angle, to get enough clearance for a helmet and padding on the roll cage tubes. It just snowballs from there, into something like the Model E. ;)

It's still very small, but it is a play toy not a daily driver luxury car. Be advised that designing around seats and people will compromise your aesthetic goals. I just challenged myself with making what must be look good.



...I am currently washing my pile of Lego Technic to build a scale model of the trike to then draw from.:D
I want to see pictures... :D
 
#37 · (Edited)
Okay, here I go with more art... :rolleyes::) I promise to back it up with some build pics next week. :D I have been working on a second roof option for the kits for quite a while, and finally came up with something I like. The original "Rag Top" style roof screams Model T, but is an aerodynamic nightmare for people like me, who want to push the speeds towards the upper limits. Schism will have this roof, styled after the 26-27 Model T Coupe roof. It will also be an option for customers.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Cool, I was wondering which roof you would like more, when I posted that last rendering here. :) I've thought about losing the pinched cowl on the production kits, as it would really help with foot space, and aero. Maybe we'll have that as yet another option...

Edit: I forgot, the larger doors are an absolute necessity with a low roof on a bucket body. I'm not really sure they'll even be enough for larger individuals. We start skinning the chassis with bodywork soon, we'll see...
 
#41 ·
Work will resume now that the Model E has been stretched, and has received its carbon fiber clone of the fiberglass body. That means the fiberglass body goes to Schism, as shown mocked up here.



We'll be using the old track nose from the Model E as well, with a shorter hood. The new model for that has been created, with better lines for the track nose and shorter span, so more CAD/CNC foam will happen soon.



We'll do a little tweaking on the cage, and can now begin adding parts. We had to have a body to locate them.
 
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