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Powerglide Secrets EVers Should Know

55K views 61 replies 24 participants last post by  mizlplix 
#1 ·
Somethings that I think that every EV hobbyist should know about Powerglides. I'm not an expert but these are things I have learned by reading and experimenting or have seen done by others over a lot of years.

The powerglide could probably be the most versatile transmission there is for an EV. Here are some things to know.

The powerglide in all of its varied forms is Flintstones simple and rock solid technology.

Properly set up it should allow smaller lighter motors, leaving GVW for batteries.

The torque converterless manually shifted powerglide trans has been extensively developed by roundy round racers. The parts for a converterless conversion to a manually shifted power glide can be found in Jegs or Summit and many other catalogs. These transmissions do not slip or waste power the only loss is in running the pump, multi gear manuals probably consume more power dragging all those extra gears through the trans oil.

There are a number of versions available with and without clutch pedal.

You can buy one complete, overhauled Beefed up and ready to install for less then you pay for a good controller.

With an aluminum valve body they are as light or lighter then many manual transmissions plus you are only carrying around what you need, e.g. Low, High and Reverse.

The roundy rounders use them for just that reason

Those who wish regenerative braking and worry about clutch packs disengaging during decel there are systems in the roundy rounder version that allow push starting. Those guys don’t have starters, they weigh too much.

Solenoid shift controls are available.

The front pump and input shaft coupling adapters are available with common well known bolt patterns, so motor to trans adapters should be easy to fabricate.

A good selection of low gear ratios is available.

They can be made to fit virtually any longitudinal drive train. I wouldn't rule out FWD either, somebody out there probably makes some form of adapter.

They can be unbelievably strong. Drag Racers regularly run 800 -1000 hp through them with BIG torque.

The trans is not too long, you can saw off the bell housing and put a readily available shorty output shaft and end cover on it. and have a trans that is about 14 inches long from input to output.

There are a number of bolt on bell housings (they bolt to the front pump after you saw off the stock bell housings) out there for common Ford Chrysler AMC add many other engines.

The trans can be, with a little re-engineering to bearings, easily adapted to sidewinder configuration for those who want to build big 2 and three wheelers.

Finally you can still build a completely new powerglide from scratch. Every part including cases are still available in heavy duty reinforced form, brand new from somebody.

I've just really discovered EVs but I'm + 60s and getting sick so I can't work with this big stuff for myself anymore. I have my own little EV stuff.

I hope some of you younger people take another look at these transmissions. I know switching out a perfectly good transmission sounds like extra trouble, but if it is measurably better it might be worth a look. After all a lot of you are switching out perfectly good ICEs for the same reason.

I'm sure there are many of you with pros and cons and some with better information then me. That’s what discussion forums are for. We can all learn something

Jim
 
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#34 ·
Jim,
Got another question about powerglides.
I'm looking at a motor with top rpm of 11,000.
Do you think that the innards of a powerglide would be able to stand up to that? Then I could simply use the powerglide as a gear reduction box (1.82:1) along with a 5.85:1 rear diff and be free from shifting ever again.
Thoughts?
Eric
 
#35 ·
Jim,
Got another question about powerglides.
I'm looking at a motor with top rpm of 11,000.
Do you think that the innards of a powerglide would be able to stand up to that? Then I could simply use the powerglide as a gear reduction box (1.82:1) along with a 5.85:1 rear diff and be free from shifting ever again.
Thoughts?
Eric
Eric,

This is only my opinion and I may be wrong, but from a gut feeling, I think a steady diet of that kind of rpm would pretty much overpower even a full out racing glide. (like BOOM :eek:)

I dont think even a manual trans would live long at that kind of input rpm.

If you are really planing to use this motor, find some way to reduce it by 1/2. It would be much better to put a 2 to 1 reduction in between the motor and trans. I have seen (don't remember where) planetary gear reduction units that would fill the bill.

A 5500 rpm limit is more in the range of design limits of any automotive trans, Plus that allows you to stay with a more reasonable rear end gear.

Just my thoughts,
 
#36 ·
I don't know that much about powerglides but I'd think high torque numbers would be more damaging than high RPM's. Since powerglides can be built to handle high power race motors, and since they probably rev higher than 5500, I would think a powerglide should be able to occasionally go quite a bit higher. Pure speculation on my part, but certainly smaller import cars with auto trannys rev higher than that.
 
#37 · (Edited)
JRP2 (oops I mean 3)

Race glides ($2000.00 -$4000.00 depending on what you put in them) regularly push 8-10000 rpm with 800-1000 ft lbs. But that is only for a 1/4 mile. They do get a bit hot, they do get torn down regularly, they do get new parts regularly. They are not often driven on the streets regularly.

For regular driving with a generic $1000.00 (home built for a lot less) beefed street glide (see TCI), my guess is 7000 rpm regularly would be a max limit. The clutch drum and planeteries in a glide are not that big in diameter, but at even at 7000 rpm your going to be close to the limit before they start comming apart. Maybe going to the available exotic metal parts, better bearings, then up the oil pressures and increase the lube flow for better cooling, Now we are back up to BIG money.

I'm assuming your talking about a converterless setup. With a torque converter you wouldn't want anything bigger then an 8 inch (big money) and even that at 11000 rpm :eek::eek::eek::eek: yipes !!! I'd want some THICK metal around it. Also again BIG money.

You can buy off the shelf specal explosion proof bell housing and trans case castings, but bring money.

I've looked at the available A/C motors (like the Ford/Seimens) that turn those kinds of rpm, in conjecture it looks like the output shaft Ford is part of a gear reduction unit.

In the long run I think a converterless, standard glide with a 2 to 1 reduction unit placed in the area where the converter would go well with a high rpm motor. This would allow you to stay away from those expensive race parts.

P.S. I still want an AMPhibian.
 
#38 ·
Thanks for the overview. Frankly with a motor that can turn 10,000 or more I don't even think you'd need a transmission, just a single speed gear reduction or just a low enough rear end if the vehicle isn't too heavy.
As for the AMPhibian, go for it, it's an easy build if you can find an old Max or Attex or something similar. :D The biggest problem I've had is the old ABS plastic body cracking, especially this winter. 10 degree weather and 35 year old ABS don't go together well. At least the Max's use poly bodies.
 
#39 ·
Jimdear2-

How badly do you want that AMPhibian?

http://www.vintageprojects.com/go-kart/six-wheeler-go-kart-atv.html

If you can't find one for sale, BUILD one-and ignore the ICE configuration. It's a Plywood body though, so i'd probably seal the joins with a little fiberglass and swab some Deckstain/waterproofing on it. Browse the Homepage, you'll find plenty of weatherproofing techniques in the Boats section!
 
#44 · (Edited)
Sorry for the late reply. I had forgotten this thread....



Adapter kit and coupler



AC50 + Glide




in the car




External pump


To date I have not driven it but the 150PSI pump puts it in low gear easily. It is turned on by my foot on the brake pedal. I am not using a pressure switch.

It is a TCI full manual oval-track glide. I had to replace the speedo gears and "bullet" as they were removed for racing.

BTW: the adapter uses the GM Crate engine (later small block) crankshaft flange pattern. The coupler can be bought early or late patterns to suit your adapter. ALSO: I had to play with (shorten) the input shaft and coupler length to get my 1/16" end play to assure the front pump was not end loaded and fail.



Miz
 
#49 ·
hey guys, many of you know much more about cars than I do, and while you are discussing gearboxes I would like to ask a question.
how do you determine how much torque a given gearbox can handle (is this a specification given with the car?) or is it simply based on push it until it brakes :) ?
for example, would a manual gearbox of a 2000 Audi TT (with original 1.8 turbo engine) be able to handle twin 9" motors with a Soliton 1?...this should deliver nearly 400ft-lb of torque
 
#50 · (Edited)
Depends if you want to keep within the manufactures rating for the gearbox. To find that out you need to search for the transmission type. And then search for the spec for that.

You'll find if you want a performance EV you'll need to use the gearbox from a performance ICE.

For example a BMW E46. The gearbox in a 330i rated for 320 NM, the gearbox in the 325 is 250 NM.

400 ft-lb is 540 NM - look into a getting a racing tranny? The Audi 1.8T is probably around 200 NM.

Then you also need to upgrade brakes, suspension etc.

Also have a look at what tuners have done. Here is an example:

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39405&sid=26a1b52f098b463c6bea3e8d5dd5cadb&start=25
 
#52 ·
UPDATE:

A manual shift/direct drive powerglide works in an EV really well! I have gotten about 100 miles on mine at this writing.

It weighs 75 lbs.- my T-5 manual weighed 88 Lbs. (plus clutch/flywheel/linkage)

Things I have discovered:

1-They are easy to work with and on.
2-They can not be "idled" when a direct drive coupler is used.
3-Mine ran 170 deg. F. after an hour driving in 109 Deg. F. temps.
4-It works with Regen braking just fine. The clutch/band stays locked all the way down to zero shaft speed.(then a 2-3 second delay until it drops pressure and goes to neutral.)
5-I used a 140 PSI pump, but you might get by with 80 Lbs or so.
6- For EV use, do NOT use Kevlar in the frictions. You can really use the stock-factory parts OR use the RED or BLUE racing friction parts. Kevlar only accelerates wear because it is aggressive.
7-Do NOT use an aluminum front drum, the low band wears them fast.
8-DO use a steel front hub.
9-DO use the rear clutch case savers (made for trans brake duty). It is just good sense and stops case wear for the reverse clutches.
10-DO remove reverse clutches. Run 2 on a light car(2500# or less), run 3 on all others. It reduces friction,wear, heat while in forward gears.
11-There are several small holes to drill out to increase oil flow to critical areas. Get a book.
12-No need to change to a turbo type input shaft for strength.
13-you can eliminate the "kick down" lever and rod, as you dont want a "passing gear drop down when driving an EV."
14-Always loop the cooler circuit. It lubricates a less critical portion of the transmission that the main pressure gallery omits. Only eliminate the loop if you are changing the valve body or really know what you are doing.
15-There is not a single port to supply to both forward and reverse from an external pump. I am plumbed into the low band apply servo cover. I do not have pressure in reverse and must apply throttle a little until it clunks into gear...annoying for sure.

I need to rebuild my Glide this winter and will search for the correct place to pressurise the trans to have both forward and reverse gearing.

Those "air cooled" powerglides may be a better choice for an EV, especially if you are direct coupled. The torque converter makes 80% of the transmission heat. The low gear planetary makes most of the rest.

I like the 1.85 gearing for my purposes. It is lighter duty than the 1.72 version, but my usage is way with in the GM normal standards.

All the 4 and 6 cylinder applications and some of the 283 cars are 1.85 gearing. All the 327 and up V-8 applications are 1.72 gearing.

They can be told externally by the output shaft splines and the shaft diameter is smaller in the 1.85 versions...but they both use the same output yoke....go figure...

In my area, on Craigslist, I routinely find powerglides for $150-$400 or so, depending on the condition or if it was recently rebuilt.

More when I go into the trans....Miz
 
#53 ·
MIZ,

Thanks for following through and building and posting the process of what I knew, but health prevented me from proving.

A Powerglide would be a very good solution for EV converters.

I have found it amazing that people are afraid of automatics because they don't understand how planetary gear sets and clutch packs work. This is truly amazing because a lot of these same people understand how a PWM controller works.

Here you have a transmission that has all of the things an EVer needs
Light weight
Strong
Two speeds forward
A reverse
A park
So many aftermarket parts that a new trans can be built from scratch.

It really makes me feel good to see what I couldn't do myself done and working.

Thanks,
Jim
 
#55 ·
It would be nice to see a video of the changes and prep that needs to be done to make the PG work with electric . I think more people would use them if they really understood how to make them work .

I agree this thread is great information when I do my car I will be doing a PG for sure.
 
#60 ·
That is a good point. Most street EVs currently out there would be happiest with final drive ratios between 4.5 to 1 and 6 to one. Racing uses taller (numerically lower) gears to keep the motor drawing peak power but street use favors more rpm when going down a freeway.
 
#59 ·
DISCLAIMER: I am not discussing vehicle current draw, just vehicle driveability.

Ron brings up a critical point.

Pretty much all vehicles are dependent on the motor's top rpm and the car's final drive ratio.

As Ron said- My 2,000# car and 32" tire likes a 6.14 gear and the AC50's top RPM (6500+). It works by having a 2,000# car and the RPM to give a good top speed.

A powerglide will also work on a torque brute like the Warp 11 or 13, in a similar car. When they are geared for their top RPM the final drive works out to be a shorter 3.55-4.10 (depending on tire size). This combination works by having enough torque to cover the bottom end.

The powerglide would be a poor choice for a smaller motor (AC or DC), or a heavy vehicle (3,500 Lbs and up) or hilly country if you want a top speed over 40 MPH.

Heavy haul trucks have an 18 speed transmission for a reason. To suit the motor torque to the hill and vehicle weight. Electric power is a lot like Diesel power, it has good torque over a narrow RPM band. Gear accordingly or you will be disappointed.

Ivansgarage is building a GMC Sonoma. He is using the original 4L60E transmission. It will work nicely in the truck which will be 3,500Lbs and up in weight. It is still converterless and retains the automatic shift features.



The water cooled AC motor being mocked up with the 4L60E transmission.

The motor specs are not public yet, but it is about 1/3 over an AC50 in torque. This and the 4 speeds will make this a really nice driving combination.

You can kill a nice install by "cheap skating" the gearing. (Trying to make do with what is in the vehicle.)

Everything is in the gearing for your situation.
 
#61 ·
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