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  #1  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:00 PM
ruckus ruckus is offline
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Default 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Hello,
I am replacing the brushes on an 8" Advanced DC motor (203-06-4001A). The new Helwig split redtop brushes significantly reduce heat (~20%), increase rpm (~20%), handle more amps without arcing, and give greater range (~13%). The latest EVTV show tests them and also has an informative video from Helwig at the end. This will give you more information about why these brushes are Much better than stock forklift brushes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPNa...re=uploademail

There is SIGNIFICANT savings to be had by buying in bulk. Here is the breakdown:

1 set: $225.00/motor
2 sets: $150/motor
3 sets: $130/motor
4 sets: $115/motor
5 sets: $110/motor
6 sets: $105/motor
12 sets: $95/motor

Obviously, there will be some minor shipping charges as well. I am definitely buying a set, so if there is anybody else out there who has a brush that is sized:
Length:1-5/16" (1.30")
Width:31/32" (.967")
Thick: 5/8" (.625")
Please reply or send me a pm.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 05-25-2012, 08:20 AM
ruckus ruckus is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Anyone?

This is one of the most-used EV conversion motors in history...

I know you're out there...
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  #3  
Old 05-25-2012, 01:16 PM
somanywelps somanywelps is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Was there a longevity issue?

Also, while you may be correct about the number of people using that 8" ADC motor. The people who chose to use the 8" ADC motor probably don't care very much about heat or rpm because they were so frugal on the build.
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  #4  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:26 PM
ruckus ruckus is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Well, frugality may be a factor, but size and weight are too. In our situation a larger motor would have been a difficult fit. Regardless of the reasons for purchasing an 8" motor. Once in service, if they are marginal then heat and arcing become issues and the upgrade should help those quite a bit.

Range is an issue for ALL electric cars so 13% more would pay for itself rather quickly.

Folks are finding that it does not matter whether they bought 8, 9, or 11 inches of motor. If they have forklift brushes then they are in for trouble, reduced efficiency and higher heat load. There is a reason the new Netgain motors come with the Helwig brushes. They found the other brushes to be inferior.

Cheers
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  #5  
Old 05-25-2012, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Anyone?

This is one of the most-used EV conversion motors in history...

I know you're out there...
I'd say a whole bunch of those conversions are held up in garages because of crapped out lead acid cells and no longer used. I'd also bet many were just trashed because they were not used any longer and just wasted away. You may find some interested but those folks would have to be listening in and I'd bet most are not. Some yes but most, NO.

That is reality.
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2012, 12:07 AM
ruckus ruckus is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Well this is a new low in electric snobbery.

8" brushed motor = no good scumbag lamo conversion.
9" brushed motor = awesome future tech amazing coolness.

get a grip. If an inch or 2 was that important our wives would have left long ago.

It's about weight and size. Is 11" enough for a truck? maybe not. Each vehicle has a range of workable motors depending on desired use.

Obviously those poo pooing 8" motors haven't searched evalbum and seen how many nice conversions use them. Don't forget that even a couple of years ago the 8" motor was seen as an "unnecessary" upgrade to the 6.7" motor.

Now you are supposed to be embarressed with less than 9"??

This thread is about upgrading brushes, not dissing motor size. If 8" sucks so bad, there should be a crowd ready to upgrade. The fact that I get little response suggests that those 8" motors are out there working fine. Where are the stories of failure? Isn't it the 9 and 11" fancy pancy Netgain motors that are going "boom"?

Please respond if you have something positive to say.
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Last edited by ruckus; 05-26-2012 at 12:54 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-26-2012, 05:18 AM
Duncan Duncan is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Hello,
I am replacing the brushes on an 8" Advanced DC motor (203-06-4001A). The new Helwig split redtop brushes significantly reduce heat (~20%), increase rpm (~20%), handle more amps without arcing, and give greater range (~13%). The latest EVTV show tests them and also has an informative video from Helwig at the end. This will give you more information about why these brushes are Much better than stock forklift brushes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPNa...re=uploademail

There is SIGNIFICANT savings to be had by buying in bulk. Here is the breakdown:

1 set: $225.00/motor
2 sets: $150/motor
3 sets: $130/motor
4 sets: $115/motor
5 sets: $110/motor
6 sets: $105/motor
12 sets: $95/motor

Obviously, there will be some minor shipping charges as well. I am definitely buying a set, so if there is anybody else out there who has a brush that is sized:
Length:1-5/16" (1.30")
Width:31/32" (.967")
Thick: 5/8" (.625")
Please reply or send me a pm.

Thanks!
Hi Ruckus

13% increase in range
- does not pass the smell test -
if 13% of your motor power was being converted to heat in the brushes brush life would be in the milliseconds

DC electric motor brushes are old technology - there have been thousands of engineering man years devoted to improving them

The new Helwig brushes may help us as we - abuse - our motors but 13% range improvement is silly

Saying that I'm going to measure my brushes and if they are the same size - you will be able to put me down as a possible depending on how many other people are interested and how far down your price curve you get
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2012, 12:21 PM
ruckus ruckus is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
Hi Ruckus

13% increase in range
- does not pass the smell test -
if 13% of your motor power was being converted to heat in the brushes brush life would be in the milliseconds

DC electric motor brushes are old technology - there have been thousands of engineering man years devoted to improving them

The new Helwig brushes may help us as we - abuse - our motors but 13% range improvement is silly

Saying that I'm going to measure my brushes and if they are the same size - you will be able to put me down as a possible depending on how many other people are interested and how far down your price curve you get
Hello,
Did you watch that EVTV episode? The 13% range increase was carefully documented by Tim Catellier on his BMW Z3. This is shown on his blog in detail: http://evz3.blogspot.com/ EVTV then did tests which confirm that it was the brush change that produced this effect. They ran the same motor back to back with different brushes and found 42F less temperature (21%), 600 more rpm (22%) at the same time using 77 watts less energy (14%).

So 13% would not evaporate the brushes in a matter of seconds, it just causes a lot of extra heat and lower performance/range.

Glad to get you on board. If you watch the show and read the blog I think you will be completely sold. I am thinking we could likely get Helwig to ship everyone their brushes directly. So It would be a "group" production run but each would pay and get shipped separately. This would avoid any risk.

Cheers
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  #9  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:00 AM
Duncan Duncan is offline
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

They ran the same motor back to back with different brushes and found 42F less temperature (21%), 600 more rpm (22%) at the same time using 77 watts less energy (14%).

77watts - 14% - power used - 550watts - that is the power with no load at 12v

Under load
300watthours/mile x 60 mph = 18,000 watts x 13% = 2.34Kw dumped into an area of just over 4 square inches - that is HOT

And that's at 18Kw - not the double or triple used to accelerate!

I have read the blog

Changing the brushes caused the no load speed at 12v to increase

After taking the motor out and working on it the power used appears to decrease

All good stuff but the physics of changing one part of an 80+% efficient motor and gaining 13% in efficiency....
Possible,
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  #10  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: 8" motor Helwig Brush Upgrade Bulk Buy...

A 13% improvement in no load power consumption was measured. There is no reason to believe that dramatic change applies to loaded operation. I have a hard time believing that a brush change causes the peak efficiency of our motors to climb 98%.
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