[toddshotrods]

http://wot.motortrend.com/lithium-io...le-212195.html
I'm not trying to make a point, just passing along something I saw. I actually see all this stuff as teething problems, as the industry grows and tries to find a path to viable technology and profitability. It is interesting though that the major manufacturers of the vehicles and the technology seem to have a lot of the same problems the DIY community has. There seem to be real issues that need to be resolved, not just (a lack of) money. No matter how many millions and billions are thrown at it, the problems resurface.

It'll be some DIYer in his garage, with a converted Yugo, that solves them.

[MN Driver]

A123 has had quite a bit of problems with money. It dumped cylindrical cells on the market when their deal with Chevy for the Volt dropped out. Not sure if they are still working with GM but that might save them if they setup a contract, if they haven't for the Spark EV already(haven't paid attention to the status of that). Fisker issues happened and cost them a bunch and I'm assuming they expected far more business from that too. Seems the only real money they are making and have made before, reliably, has been with the power station load balancing projects and power tool cells.

...I could be off on this, and I probably am but it seems they have the R&D down and swallowed lots of funding for development so hopefully they get these cells into some cars but it seems things are drifting towards Lithium Manganese spinel chemistries for cars. I wish them the best, the USABC testing makes them look very suitable for a car, especially when looking at the hybrid type of short DOD cycling tests, seems they would last nearly forever if held very close to 50% SOC to provide additional HP to shrink engines and still maintain short term acceleration performance which is mostly the point of hybrids destined for the highway and the reason I own one, I rarely touch the battery with my 2000 Honda Insight and bought it primarily for the small lightweight super efficient body and engine.

[nucleus]

I read a report that said that it cost A123 $1.57 for every dollar of batteries that they sold.

That means that we are getting them under cost.

In fact, this is likely the case for Lithium batteries generally. The chinese have pumped in lots of money, and the Americans less.

The chinese money goes to factories and then various business entities make a go of it, likely selling their batteries below cost, why else would they go out of business?

I don't think it bodes well for the long run, but right now we are likely getting lithium batteries for less than what they cost.

Nucleus

[mizlplix]

According to the last EVTV the A123 problem is a little more than "teething" problems. They are operating without any constraints, plans or control. They are the text book example of "how not to do it".

I am extremely sorry to see them go. It looked like the start of American presence in the Lithium race.

Step 1 in their plan was to not be "Made in the USA". A shell game.

Step 2 was to get taken by their suppliers.

Miz

[toddshotrods]

Originally Posted by mizlplix

According to the last EVTV the A123 problem is a little more than "teething" problems...

I was referring to the industry as a whole, when I said teething problems, not specifically A123.

Originally Posted by mizlplix

...I am extremely sorry to see them go. It looked like the start of American presence in the Lithium race...

Wow, what did you see that has you throwing flowers on their grave Miz! A company bleeding money is nothing new, that's a common story and many of them get through it and back/on to profitability. I doubt many (any?) are reporting a profit from EVs right now, because this is the investment phase, where tons of money, time, and energy, are expended to grow a "new" industry. Wide spread adoption is needed for profitability, and that's a "few" years out...

[jeremyjs]

Even if they do go under it's not like they'll be gone. They own hundreds of millions in property, production equipment, and Intellectual Property. If they go bankrupt someone will probably just buy them, restructure, and go on about the business of making batteries with their tech.

[Ziggythewiz]

I dunno...I think most of the machinery is owned by Chinese or Koreans and they can be indifferent to IP at times.

[toddshotrods]

Okay, now I see. The first artical I read didn't paint the picture of how bad it is. It would probably not be good for us if GM buys the company.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...84T1LE20120530

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/06/...ncial-trouble/

Their losses will be more than they're worth (market cap)...

[mizlplix]

I guess you might say I was reading between the lines when I was predicting doom.

1. They promoted themselves to congress (and all of us) as an American battery manufacturer. Reality is that they are an importer at best. True, they might assemble some cells domestically, but the pouches are not made here.

2. They seem to have cash flow problems. AT one time, Congress was talking about delaying the balance of their funds because their stated goals had not been met.

3. Watch the introduction to last fridays EVTV. They both touch on A123. There was a lot of snickering and other unclear insinuation.

SO, I made the above post based on that. I did not say I was glad in any way. Early on, I was standing along side everyone else cheering them on.

I would still see them pull it out of it's slump, but it looks less than good.

I would absolutely love buying My cells from an American manufacturer.

Miz

[JRP3]

Originally Posted by mizlplix

1. They promoted themselves to congress (and all of us) as an American battery manufacturer. Reality is that they are an importer at best. True, they might assemble some cells domestically, but the pouches are not made here.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Their tab welding machine alignment problem that produced defective pouch cells was in their Livonia Michigan plant.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012...-20120326.html