[bmentink]

Hi All,

I am thinking of using one of these in my EV conversion, so just thought I would post if someone had purchased one of these beasts from Oz land ..

They are a bit on the expensive side, but are real easy to set up on any AC motor.

I intend using it with an EVE AC30 motor ..

Cheers,
Bernard.

[Coulomb]

Originally Posted by bmentink

... if someone had purchased one of these beasts from Oz land ..

Yes. I live in Oz Land, about 8 miles from the factory.

I intend using it with an EVE AC30 motor ..

We're using it with an industrial 22 kW motor, 230 V delta.

EV Album page
Build thread (long)

[bmentink]

Originally Posted by Coulomb

We're using it with an industrial 22 kW motor, 230 V delta.

Thanks for that. So how are you finding the Controller?

Interested in what motor brand/model you used and what sort of
performance you get from it?

Thanks.

[Coulomb]

Originally Posted by bmentink

So how are you finding the Controller?

Ah. We're bogged down with Battery Management development at present. After that, we can finish all 8 battery cages (well, we can start with one half-pack), and do the wiring. So we're a few months from running it, unfortunately.

Interested in what motor brand/model you used and what sort of
performance you get from it?

Well, we've actually had some performance data from Tritium.

It's an ABB 3GAA 131 008E (S variant):



So that's 230 V (delta) 22 kW nominal at 50 Hz, in a 132 frame (264 mm diameter).



The tests were with a ~ 360 VDC nominal battery that sagged to 350, 340, and 330 VDC respectively with 300, 200, and 100 A motor current (RMS current per phase).

We do hope to swap to a higher voltage version of the Tritium controller (if and when it becomes available) so that we can get about 100 kW peak mechanical from the motor at lower motor current, and we also intend to operate it at higher speeds. (Their test "dynamometer" happened to be a low speed motor, with a maximum speed of 2500 RPM). As you can see, we didn't even get to nominal speed (the torque is flat, apart from the collapsing test battery), so this test doesn't find the motor's maximum power.

The Tritium Wavesculptor 200 at AU$6000 (plus $600 GST) replaces a Control Techniques industrial controller that cost over AU$13,000 for about the same peak power, and is much physically smaller and lighter. We decided on the change when we found that it really was going to be very difficult to squeeze the industrial (CT) controller into our small MX-5. We also needed to buy some water cooling gear, at around AU$500 (from poor memory). The industrial controller was air cooled. Even so, the Tritium is about half the price of the industrial controller.

So we're quite happy with the price, size, weight, and performance of this controller. Unfortunately, we can't tell give you any real-world experience with it as yet.

References:

Motor arrives
Motor performance curves
Cooling gear arrives

[bmentink]

Many thanks for that, the specs look good, that is a great torque figure.

So was it the CALIB cells that were sagging in voltage at the 300A? I take it you were using 60A/h or 90A/h cells?

What did the motor cost?

[Coulomb]

Originally Posted by bmentink

So was it the CALIB cells that were sagging in voltage at the 300A?

I don't remember if they were clapped out Thunder Skys or Lead Acid; they were hidden away inside a wooden box. It was not our SE/CALB cells.

What did the motor cost?

Although it was from an ABB catalogue, it seems to be a special order. It took many months to get a proper quote, then to get the thing made and shipped, and then it arrived with the wrong flange. It ended up costing us around AU$2600, a lot more than the ~ AU$1000 that more "standard" motors were going for. I think they charge a premium for the hassle of packing all that copper into such a small space. If we had the space, we'd probably have gone for a larger frame motor, but there was no way a 160 frame motor would fit into an MX-5 (Miata).

[bmentink]

Originally Posted by Coulomb

Although it was from an ABB catalogue, it seems to be a special order. It took many months to get a proper quote, then to get the thing made and shipped, and then it arrived with the wrong flange. It ended up costing us around AU$2600, a lot more than the ~ AU$1000 that more "standard" motors were going for. I think they charge a premium for the hassle of packing all that copper into such a small space. If we had the space, we'd probably have gone for a larger frame motor, but there was no way a 160 frame motor would fit into an MX-5 (Miata).

Thanks for that. I compared the torque/power data you published, and so far it looks to out perform the EVE AC30 and AC40 motors, so am impressed.

I would like to see what it is going to cost here in New Zealand, might pay a visit to ABB down the road from my work ..

So when you ordered the motor, did you specify the voltage as 240vRMS DELTA connection and a 132 size case? I take it they have to do a special wind for that voltage .. do you think you will have to add any forced air cooling, or does the motor have that built in ... bit hard to see in the photo .. by the way, what was the weight of the motor?

Thanks.

[Coulomb]

Originally Posted by bmentink

I would like to see what it is going to cost here in New Zealand, might pay a visit to ABB down the road from my work ..

Yes, do. If that fails, you might like to contact David Gayner of Control Logic, Australia. It seems from a review of old email that he was instrumental in getting the motor ordered.

[ Edit: It was David Gayner that visited us; here are his details:

David Gayner : : Automation and Drives Sales
Control Logic Pty Ltd

T: 07 3623 1212 D: 07 3623 1231
F: 07 3623 1211M: 0409 626 817
www.control-logic.com.au

He's based in Brisbane, as are Dave and I (Weber and Coulomb on the AEVA and here). ]

[quote] So when you ordered the motor, did you specify the voltage as 240vRMS DELTA connection and a 132 size case?
The 132 frame size is part of the motor part number. Here are the numbers from the catalogue, along with numbers for a few other motors you might want to look at:



However, the motor voltage is an option, so you need to specify the complete part number:

3GAA 131 008-HSE

The 3GAA is just aluminium motors. The "13" part means 132 frame size; the "1" means one pole pair (2-pole). We went for a 2-pole motor as its speed matches an ICE better when using a car transmission. However, if you want to overvoltage/overfrequency to the max, then you might want to consider a 4-pole motor (more torque, less base speed). The "008" is this particular 22 kW motor, high output and all that. I forget what the "H" option is; I think it's the large flange. The "S" option (in HSE) is the important one for the voltage: it means 400 V Star (of 230 V delta). I also forget what the "E" means; look up the ABB catalogues for details. [Edit: looks like it's also part of the full motor part number; perhaps the "E" implies "high output design", or something. ]

I take it they have to do a special wind for that voltage ..

Well, I think that any motor that's somewhat unusual like this is a special order. I don't know if the "S" option made it take longer or not. Note: it took us about 9 months from order to receiving the motor (and then it arrived with the wrong flange; the flange is a standard part and ABB corrected it quickly... twice, if I recall).

Also, these high output motors don't meet the Australian MEPs efficiency requirements, but there are exemptions for use in vehicles. Check with ABB as to whether a similar thing happens with your country. We just had to send a letter quoting the law, and declaring that the motor was for use in a vehicle, and is therefore exempt. That delayed our order a few weeks as well.

do you think you will have to add any forced air cooling, or does the motor have that built in ...

All induction motors that I know of come with an impeller at the end for cooling. This is fine when running at 50 Hz or 60 Hz all day, but in a vehicle, a motor gets hottest when accelerating, a lot of which is at low speed. So you get too much cooling when cruising, and not enough when accelerating, and none while waiting at lights after doing a lot of work. So we've removed the impeller fan, and will probably use the shaft that is thereby exposed to put on a pulley to run the air conditioner, and perhaps the power steering (it was also going to run the alternator, but we found suitable high voltage power supplies to act as DC/DC converters).

We suspect that the motor will be loafing and not need any cooling, when it's run with a 900 V controller. However, with a 450 V controller (all that is available right now), we'll be running at lower RPMs and higher torque, therefore higher current, so we expect we'll need a thermatic car fan (designed for radiators) to cool the fins. We have a thermistor in the motor (required for the Tritium controller) that will give us an idea of the motor temperature.

Note also that the Tritium requires a shaft encoder on the motor, so that's another minor expense and installation. It won't run open loop as some other controllers will. It's probably a good idea to install an encoder even if it's optional, to get the most out of the motor.

what was the weight of the motor?

As you can see above, 95 kg. Not exactly a brute, but not light either. There is a lot of copper and iron packed into that compact frame; see our build thread for photos.
[ Edit: compare for example with Acmotor's (the avatar's) motor, which is also 22 kW nominal, and 2% more efficient, but in a 180 frame (!), and weighs 161 kg! ]

[Coulomb]

I've corrected our contact David Gayner's details above. I'll repeat them here, in this new post:

David Gayner : : Automation and Drives Sales
Control Logic Pty Ltd

T: 07 3623 1212 D: 07 3623 1231
F: 07 3623 1211M: 0409 626 817
www.control-logic.com.au

He's based in Brisbane. Woody (from Sydney) has also ordered his motor through David. I'm not sure if another company has to be involved; our motor was ordered through Electronic Innovations; Weber used to work there and is still in contact with the staff. It's possible that you need a company (with an Australian Business Number or equivalent) to order; something to ask.

In earlier posts, I was confusing Control Logic and Control Techniques; I hope I've corrected everything now.

[bmentink]

Thanks again.

One last question for now: How are you mounting the motor, normally in an EV application you mount an adapter plate to the end of the motor, so is the motor available in that sort of mount configuration. (Most industrial motors come with a mounting foot..)

Sorry for all these questions, but I can't seem to find the motor catalogue on any of the ABB web sites ..