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Old 09-11-2014, 02:12 PM
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Default What is bad ringing?

Following up on the ringing discussion on generatorlabs homebrew thread I decided to make a little experiment.

The question being: how much ringing is too much?

So this is the test setup:

Two film caps, 420F each connected to the DC bus in a laminated fashion. The loop could be smaller, but still.
The Bus voltage is 33V. A rewound 190V ACIM is connected (not on this picture I know). Switching frequency is 17.6kHz.

So here is the first test: how much ringing can I see on the DC bus?
Scope is set to 5V/div

We see an spike to about +-/12V, so about 30% of the bus voltage.

Next the AC output between GND and L1. Scope is set to 10V/div

And we see a bit of ringing as some other phase switches.

Now I completely disconnected the bus caps, no snubbers, no nothing. This is the result:

100V/div so we see 400V spikes which is like 1200% of the bus voltage!
It means that with 100V bus voltage I could kill those 1200V IGBTs with hardly any current going through them.

On the AC side we see bad ringing but the amplitude is small compared to the DC side.
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  #2  
Old 09-11-2014, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

Are these tests recent? Or is this the work you originally did when putting your controller together?

As for the ringing you measured on the DC bus; I imagine you just put your probe across the B+ and B- rails but did you have any settings, such as filtering enabled on the channel? I have not checked for ringing on the DC bus. Any measurements I have been looking at have been on the AC side.

This is a little clearer now. You are looking for excessive spikes that could damage the IGBT. I guess I could visualize it as a semi-full dam trying to hold back waves. With no storm the dam is OK. Add some wind (ringing) and the waves rise. If the waves are too high they will crest the dam and cause damage to the village below (IGBT junction).

These phenomenon are not typical in the type of low voltage projects I work with so this is a new arena for me. I am really curious to see what my rails look like now.

Last edited by generatorlabs; 09-11-2014 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

I tried to mimic the tests you did.
Scope set to 5v/div
Input voltage is 24vdc
fmax set to 100
Probe attached across B+ and B- rails on controller
I think the sag I see when the motor starts is due to the limitations of the old batteries and they are not fully charged.

I was going to put this up on my thread but I figured I would put it here first to see if I did the measurement as you did.

Here is a snippet: http://youtu.be/HwQYTpMfdX8

Thanks
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RingingDCBus.jpg (28.1 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by generatorlabs; 09-11-2014 at 06:00 PM.
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  #4  
Old 09-15-2014, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

The DC bus looks ok to me. What about AC? Can you zoom in a little so we see only one PWM period?

Make sure the probe tip and GND connection are close to each other, i.e. no loop is formed.
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuebner View Post
What about AC? Can you zoom in a little so we see only one PWM period?
When you say measure AC, where am I measuring across? I am assuming you are saying to measure across one leg on the motor but when you refer to ground are you meaning the B minus rail on the DC bus?

Thanks
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

Yes, B- and L1 (or any phase)

You can measure phase-to-phase as well but I find that a bit confusing because two PWM patterns overlap
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

To be consitent I am posting this video here as well as my controller build thread. This shows the waveforms I get with frequency set to @ 80.

All measurements were on L1 & L2 with respect to B minus on the DC bus.

http://youtu.be/S7SqYOYF0OI

Do you observe any bad ringing components in the waveforms?

Thanks
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

I'll repost here:
Ok, the ringing is only on the AC side not on DC. So please correct me if I'm wrong but this is not a DC bus problem.

Try using twisted pair cable on the short connection from gate driver to IGBT on one half bridge and see how it compares.

I have seen modules blow up because inside the cable from the terminal to the actual IGBT chip formed a loop.

I wouldn't judge the amplitude of spikes and ringing as alarming but they are definitely a pointer to a design issue.
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2014, 05:38 PM
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Lightbulb Re: What is bad ringing?

It looks like the IGBTs may not be held strongly enough in conduction which allows voltage transients to appear, or (perhaps more likely) the spikes are being induced into the scope probe and/or leads. A quick check for that is to connect the probe to the same ground point you are using as a reference, and any spikes you see are from RFI or ground noise.

Also it would be good to use an analog input and pot to adjust the motor speed more conveniently.
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Old 09-21-2014, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: What is bad ringing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PStechPaul View Post
it would be good to use an analog input and pot to adjust the motor speed more conveniently.
There is a pot on there. It is shown connected and working in my other threads, however in torque mode the motor ramps up and down due to the fact that no load is on it. For the purpose of these measurements it is simpler to use volt/hz mode and type in a speed.

As for the noise, I could really believe that a lot of the noise is being picked up by the probe leads. If I understood you correctly you are saying to put the probes ground clip and the probe tip, for example, on the DC minus bus and see if I still see noise with both touching the same plane of reference? Is that right? Thanks for the input!

Last edited by generatorlabs; 09-25-2014 at 09:02 PM.
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