[EVDL List]

OH BOY OH BOY
I want one now!
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/products/N5_range_extender

precious few specs up on the site, except that its 5KWh, and cost $10K, but
that includes installation and warranty for a prius only. Looks like it
must have a built in charger and BMS also! Perhaps the L5 module will make
its way to the EV world somewhat cheaper and designed specifically for EV
conversions!

Jon

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Any know about Firefly Energy lead acid batteries?

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, nicolas drouin <nicolas.xxx@xxx.xxx>
[quote]wrote:

> On 5/28/08, Jon Wagner <xxx@xxx.xxx> [quote]wrote:
> ...
> > precious few specs up on the site
> ...
> > Perhaps the L5 module will make its way to the EV world
> > somewhat cheaper and designed specifically for EV conversions!
>
>
> While the L5 is a breakthrough for Prius owners, in my opinion, it
> wont make much of a splash on the EV scene. They don't have much for
> specs, but if you look at their nifty animation, it pretty much spills
> the beans: 7 packs of 4S22P of the ANR26650M1's, one BMS per pack,
> looks like a charger and a fan too.
>
> If you look through the archives, you'll see my most recent discussion
> with A123 regarding their cells.
>
>
> http://www.nabble.com/A123-Cells-for-EVs---Still-a-dead-end-tp17379507p17379507.html
>
> In particular, I had asked if the sub-assemblies (what looked like
> 88cells with a BMS) of the Hymotion L5 product, could be purchases
> separately, as a sort-of spin-off which would meet the needs of the EV
> market.
>
> I was assured that they will be addressing the EV market, but not at
> this time; many issues including packaging, cell-matching, heat and
> charge management, etc. had to be addressed. They gave no timeline,
> but I wouldn't expect it to be hitting the shelves anytime soon.
>
> I you are looking at LiFePoly, the only off the shelf with a BMS is
> Valence; see my post with the latest pricing:
>
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-Valence%27s-Epoch-line-of-Lithium-Phosphate-tp17172792p17193862.html
>
> At best: 1.39$/Wh with Valence
>
> I am also in contact with the guys on the Killacycle team with regards
> to custom pack building using A123 cells. Pricing (at 1.49$/Wh +
> Engineering, BMS, parts and assembly), is above that of Valence,
> which comes with guarantees and a production-line assembly. This
> might become feasible if the $/cell was more reasonable, but A123 wont
> sell 'small' quantities of raw cells (see post).
>
> I have also tried, unsuccessfully, to get in touch with someone at
> ElectroVaya, they have a product similar to Kokam's.
>
> Of course, you can go the ThunderSky route; you'll get all sorts of
> advice on that, if you're interested.
>
> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate
> aspect of their cells lends itself to a much simpler pack/cell design.
> Versus a cylindrical cell, such as A123's, where you are effectively
> forcing yourself to series and parallel the cells until you achieve
> what you are looking for: a high-capacity, high-power, higher-voltage
> cell. Each series and parallel connection is another potential point
> of failure. To have a 15kWh pack from A123 cells, you'll need almost
> 2000 cells; that's 4000 points of failure! Even if the batteries can
> deliver 3000+ cycles, you have to ensure your entire pack can get that
> far without a weld coming loose (knowing that your application, an EV,
> is a high-vibration environment).
>
> -Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Marty Mercer
Sacramento, CA
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Marty,

I am involved in the trucking industry and have been following Firefly.
Below is a reply I received 2 days ago from them. That's the latest word
that I know of.

Reguards,
Jim


Dear Mr Foreman:

The Oasis battery is currently in limited production, with sample product
being delivered to a limited number of fleet and OE accounts, one of whom,
I'm pretty sure, is Peterbilt. We do not have batteries available for
immediate purchase. Please contact me during the latter part of the summer
for an update. Thanks very much for your interest.

Best Regards,
Dan Stewart
Firefly Energy



----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Mercer" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 L5 battery


> Any know about Firefly Energy lead acid batteries?
>
> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, nicolas drouin <nicolas.xxx@xxx.xxx>
[quote]> wrote:
>
>> On 5/28/08, Jon Wagner <xxx@xxx.xxx[quote]> wrote:
>> ...
>> > precious few specs up on the site
>> ...
>> > Perhaps the L5 module will make its way to the EV world
>> > somewhat cheaper and designed specifically for EV conversions!
>>
>>
>> While the L5 is a breakthrough for Prius owners, in my opinion, it
>> wont make much of a splash on the EV scene. They don't have much for
>> specs, but if you look at their nifty animation, it pretty much spills
>> the beans: 7 packs of 4S22P of the ANR26650M1's, one BMS per pack,
>> looks like a charger and a fan too.
>>
>> If you look through the archives, you'll see my most recent discussion
>> with A123 regarding their cells.
>>
>>
>> http://www.nabble.com/A123-Cells-for-EVs---Still-a-dead-end-tp17379507p17379507.html
>>
>> In particular, I had asked if the sub-assemblies (what looked like
>> 88cells with a BMS) of the Hymotion L5 product, could be purchases
>> separately, as a sort-of spin-off which would meet the needs of the EV
>> market.
>>
>> I was assured that they will be addressing the EV market, but not at
>> this time; many issues including packaging, cell-matching, heat and
>> charge management, etc. had to be addressed. They gave no timeline,
>> but I wouldn't expect it to be hitting the shelves anytime soon.
>>
>> I you are looking at LiFePoly, the only off the shelf with a BMS is
>> Valence; see my post with the latest pricing:
>>
>>
>> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-Valence%27s-Epoch-line-of-Lithium-Phosphate-tp17172792p17193862.html
>>
>> At best: 1.39$/Wh with Valence
>>
>> I am also in contact with the guys on the Killacycle team with regards
>> to custom pack building using A123 cells. Pricing (at 1.49$/Wh +
>> Engineering, BMS, parts and assembly), is above that of Valence,
>> which comes with guarantees and a production-line assembly. This
>> might become feasible if the $/cell was more reasonable, but A123 wont
>> sell 'small' quantities of raw cells (see post).
>>
>> I have also tried, unsuccessfully, to get in touch with someone at
>> ElectroVaya, they have a product similar to Kokam's.
>>
>> Of course, you can go the ThunderSky route; you'll get all sorts of
>> advice on that, if you're interested.
>>
>> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
>> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate
>> aspect of their cells lends itself to a much simpler pack/cell design.
>> Versus a cylindrical cell, such as A123's, where you are effectively
>> forcing yourself to series and parallel the cells until you achieve
>> what you are looking for: a high-capacity, high-power, higher-voltage
>> cell. Each series and parallel connection is another potential point
>> of failure. To have a 15kWh pack from A123 cells, you'll need almost
>> 2000 cells; that's 4000 points of failure! Even if the batteries can
>> deliver 3000+ cycles, you have to ensure your entire pack can get that
>> far without a weld coming loose (knowing that your application, an EV,
>> is a high-vibration environment).
>>
>> -Nick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marty Mercer
> Sacramento, CA
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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>>> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
>>> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate

I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
Jon

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From:http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm

" Retail price is $1.60 per watt-hr. Therefore, the price of a Kokam
100 amp-hr cell is $592 US."

I'm watching these, too.

Brian

[quote] Jon Wagner <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
>>>> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate
>
> I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
> do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
> Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.

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I am going to the electrovaya office this morning. Is there something I can
do for you? I live close by.

Werner

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:48 PM, nicolas drouin <nicolas.xxx@xxx.xxx>
[quote]wrote:

> On 5/29/08, Jon Wagner <xxx@xxx.xxx> [quote]wrote:
> > I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
> > do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
>
> Personally, no. But a quick google yielded:
> http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
> Who states a 1.60$/Wh retail and actually has a running pack (and a
> very impressive project).
>
> Here's what I figure: if AzureDynamics if going with Kokam, (for the
> fleet of Sentra's they are working on in Mexico city), I'm certainly
> ready to keep it in the running.
>
> Personally, I would love a made-in-Canada battery solution using
> ElectroVaya, but have failed to connect with them. I'm going to keep
> trying, it may even be worth a little drive down the highway to knock
> on some doors.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
********************************************
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www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
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The thing about kokam that is scaring me off right now is that nasty >800
charge cycles to 80% capacity...
Thundersky lists >2000 cycles for the same discharge level. I know you can
never be sure about specs, but that's a big difference.

In case you care: I've been head-to-head comparing Kokam'1 100Ah cell with
Thundersky's 90Ah cell.

Kokam's 100Ah cell lists peak discharge current at 800A = 8C, wheras the
thundersky lists 10C. Also TS lists 3C charge, while Kokam lists 2C.

Kokam has a slight edge in weight at 2.7Kg vs. 3Kg. I also really worry
about the integrity of Kokam's main tabs. That's just me, but I really like
the idea of positive locking threads for connections. Making a pack out of
Kokam's cells looks like it could be a bit of design/fabrication effort too,
so the weight might be a wash anyway.

BIGGEST ISSUE (for me): compare Kokam's $1.60/Wh retail, to thundersky's
sweetspot cell - the 3.6V90Ah, which is much closer to $.50/Wh. The Kokam
cell is going to have to be a lot better than the datasheet, and the
thundersky a lot worse to make the economics work out for me. Even if they
have a 5-10% DOA rate, TS look damn good to me.
Jon

>> > I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
>> > do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
>>
>> Personally, no. But a quick google yielded:
>> http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
>> Who states a 1.60$/Wh retail and actually has a running pack (and a
>> very impressive project).
>>
>> Here's what I figure: if AzureDynamics if going with Kokam, (for the
>> fleet of Sentra's they are working on in Mexico city), I'm certainly
>> ready to keep it in the running.


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> The thing about kokam that is scaring me off right now is that nasty >800
> charge cycles to 80% capacity...
> Thundersky lists >2000 cycles for the same discharge level. I know you
> can
> never be sure about specs, but that's a big difference.

Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
honest with their specs.
Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?

Kokam, on the other hand, has a reputation for being striaght shooters and
honest about their product.

Thundersky's specs are meaningless since they don't guarantee them and
wouldn't honor the guarantee if they did.

I'd go with the Kokams


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> Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
> honest with their specs.
> Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
> turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?

That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better bet
to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of
Kokam.

Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS
monitoring each cell and the use scenario.
Jon

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A while back a group of EVDL members arranged a group buy from TS. TS had
a bunch of batteries that didn't pass their crappy QC so they decided to
offload them on the Stupid Americans. They KNEW they were bad cells and
they sold them anyway.

These days folks that are smart go to the factory in China and test the
batteries before buying them. They end up rejecting many of them that
pass Thundersky's QC.
If TS is willing to sell known defective batteries to us, what do you
think they are going to do with ones that pass their "QC" but aren't
purchased by the above buyers?

Even folks who buy LOTs of batteries from TS, have had batteries that
looked good initially but failed within the first year. Internal
corrosion caused by poor quality control during assembly.

Thundersky NEVER replaces defective cells regardless of who buys them or
why they failed. Well, I've heard rumors that they might honor their
warranty for Chinese customers, but never for foreign customers.

If you're comfortable taking that kind of crap shoot with that much money,
knock yourself out.

>> Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
>> honest with their specs.
>> Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
>> turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?
>
> That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better
> bet
> to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of
> Kokam.
>
> Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS
> monitoring each cell and the use scenario.
> Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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