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  #1  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:16 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default [EVDL] Automatic transmission question

My Ford Ranger has an automatic 4 gear Light Duty transmission
(that is why it has code A4LD) and I am baffled by one thing:
I hear from everyone that the transmission fluid level
should be higher when running than when it is cold and not running.
However if I check the fluid level with everything off then the
level shows an inch above the hatched (do not fill) warm/running area
which is more than 2 inches above the top one of two small holes in
the dipstick that should indicate the level at cold/not running.
When I start the car, the motor will run at idling speed of
somewhere between 200-300 RPM and I can blip the throttle to boost that,
I move the gear selector through all the gears and wait a few sec in
each
to make sure that the gear is indeed engaged (I can feel a little thunk
when reverse engages) and with the selector in Park and motor idling
I check the fluid level - it shows the correct level in the hatched
area.
How is that possible? Is a filter restricted that does not allow the oil
to flow back or something? I can't make chocolat from this one...

Anybody have advice?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] What a difference tire pressure makes!

I was getting more and more concerned about what seemed to be a dropping
range on my truck, no matter what I did the consumption did not want to
go down much and I could barely maintain 55 on the freeway.
I had inflated the tires a month ago when I started driving this truck
but at that time they were warm so I had slightly over-inflated them (35
PSI max cold pressure so I had put a little over 40 in them as Light
Truck tires are required by law to allow at least 5 PSI over max
sidewall cold pressure) and when I checked both rear tires now they were
indeed still close to 40 (I did put a few extra PSI in them anyway) but
the front tires had lost more, one was down close to only 25 PSI, so I
pumped all of them to around 42 (this EV is never going to heat up its
tires like an ICE truck that can do max speed for hours at a time).

Now it easily maintains 55 on the freeway except on one long overpass
and I arrived at work with the consumption meter showing 63% SoC while
earlier it usually showed between 55 and 58% depending on the number of
times I would have to stop for a light.

The truck is still taking too much power to drive a constant 55, at
least to my liking the 200A draw at 110V or approx 22kW is still
relatively high when compared to the 15kW that I would like to see for
this type of trip. But at least the 400Wh per mile is more acceptable
than the 500+Wh that I saw earlier when running in lower gear (more loss
in the automatic) and too low tire pressure.

Eventually I may bring the tire pressure up to 50 PSI cold so it is
equal to the pressure in my S10 (which also had tires that had max 35 on
the sidewall but needed 50 to avoid rolling over the tire thread and
drive on the sidewall in a quick turn).

Then I may need to see if I can do something about the tranny - both the
occasional leak from the fill tube as well as putting synthetic oil in
to see if that will further reduce the losses.
And of course, avoid the more than 2" overfill that my transmission has
today. That can't be good for efficiency either.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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  #2  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:45 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
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Default Re: [EVDL] Automatic transmission question

If your vehicle has atorque converter (as most automatic transmissions do),
then the fluid level will drop while the vehicle is runnung as the torque
converter will be "storing" about 3-5 quarts of fluid while it is spinning.
When it stops spinning, about 2 quarts of the fluid ebbs back into the
transmission's valve body, giving you that high mark reading.
As a result, the only way to get an accurate measurement is to park on a
level surface, set the emergency brake, then place the the transmission in
neutral (with the motor on), and then check the level. On some vehicles,
placing it in park still affects the level (most vehicles, it is just a
locking pin, but on some it is a clamping band).
Hope this helps.
-Tom
[quote] "Cor van de Water" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> My Ford Ranger has an automatic 4 gear Light Duty transmission
> (that is why it has code A4LD) and I am baffled by one thing:
> I hear from everyone that the transmission fluid level
> should be higher when running than when it is cold and not running.
> However if I check the fluid level with everything off then the
> level shows an inch above the hatched (do not fill) warm/running area
> which is more than 2 inches above the top one of two small holes in
> the dipstick that should indicate the level at cold/not running.
> When I start the car, the motor will run at idling speed of
> somewhere between 200-300 RPM and I can blip the throttle to boost that,
> I move the gear selector through all the gears and wait a few sec in
> each
> to make sure that the gear is indeed engaged (I can feel a little thunk
> when reverse engages) and with the selector in Park and motor idling
> I check the fluid level - it shows the correct level in the hatched
> area.
> How is that possible? Is a filter restricted that does not allow the oil
> to flow back or something? I can't make chocolat from this one...
>
> Anybody have advice?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:04 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] What a difference tire pressure makes!
>
> I was getting more and more concerned about what seemed to be a dropping
> range on my truck, no matter what I did the consumption did not want to
> go down much and I could barely maintain 55 on the freeway.
> I had inflated the tires a month ago when I started driving this truck
> but at that time they were warm so I had slightly over-inflated them (35
> PSI max cold pressure so I had put a little over 40 in them as Light
> Truck tires are required by law to allow at least 5 PSI over max
> sidewall cold pressure) and when I checked both rear tires now they were
> indeed still close to 40 (I did put a few extra PSI in them anyway) but
> the front tires had lost more, one was down close to only 25 PSI, so I
> pumped all of them to around 42 (this EV is never going to heat up its
> tires like an ICE truck that can do max speed for hours at a time).
>
> Now it easily maintains 55 on the freeway except on one long overpass
> and I arrived at work with the consumption meter showing 63% SoC while
> earlier it usually showed between 55 and 58% depending on the number of
> times I would have to stop for a light.
>
> The truck is still taking too much power to drive a constant 55, at
> least to my liking the 200A draw at 110V or approx 22kW is still
> relatively high when compared to the 15kW that I would like to see for
> this type of trip. But at least the 400Wh per mile is more acceptable
> than the 500+Wh that I saw earlier when running in lower gear (more loss
> in the automatic) and too low tire pressure.
>
> Eventually I may bring the tire pressure up to 50 PSI cold so it is
> equal to the pressure in my S10 (which also had tires that had max 35 on
> the sidewall but needed 50 to avoid rolling over the tire thread and
> drive on the sidewall in a quick turn).
>
> Then I may need to see if I can do something about the tranny - both the
> occasional leak from the fill tube as well as putting synthetic oil in
> to see if that will further reduce the losses.
> And of course, avoid the more than 2" overfill that my transmission has
> today. That can't be good for efficiency either.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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  #3  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:45 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
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Default Re: [EVDL] Automatic transmission question

Hello Cor,

Tom has it right on the torque converter. If you search the web site for
your transmission, it will say how many quarts it should take.

Installing a new automatic transmission for the first time, it is
recommended to pour in about 2 quarts into the torque convert which will
fill it half full before you install it into the transmission.

Lets say the transmission takes 12 quarts of oil. Half full the torque
converter with two quarts leave about 10 quarts left. When the transmission
is install into the vehicle, only add 8 quarts while the motor is not
running. This is now 10 quarts.

You do not what to add the entire amount of oil initially while the motor is
off, because you may overfill the oil pan. And if you start up the motor,
the oil may push out the vent valve that is on top of the transmission.

The you start up the motor to idle and continue fill transmission with oil
to the recommended capacity. As the motor is running, the fill mark on the
stick should be at the cold mark.

The additional 2 quarts of oil fills up the torque converter which lowers
the oil to the cold mark. As the transmission warms up, it should rise to
the hot mark.

When you turn off the motor, half of the oil drains back to the oil pan. If
you start up again while the oil is hot, let it come to idle first before
you increase to a high rpm, or you will force the oil out the overflow vent.

In racing, we are require to have a hose to come off the vent that drains
into a recovery tank which then drains back to the oil pan when the recovery
tank is full. I did the same oil recovery for my EV. Also install a
deeper oil pan with a thick composite cork gasket and a drain plug which I
did not have to worry about overfilling the oil pan when the oil drain back.

Since I did this mod to my automatic, never had a blown pump seal, leaking
pan gaskets and oil blown out the vent tube.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 6:10 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Automatic transmission question


> My Ford Ranger has an automatic 4 gear Light Duty transmission
> (that is why it has code A4LD) and I am baffled by one thing:
> I hear from everyone that the transmission fluid level
> should be higher when running than when it is cold and not running.
> However if I check the fluid level with everything off then the
> level shows an inch above the hatched (do not fill) warm/running area
> which is more than 2 inches above the top one of two small holes in
> the dipstick that should indicate the level at cold/not running.
> When I start the car, the motor will run at idling speed of
> somewhere between 200-300 RPM and I can blip the throttle to boost that,
> I move the gear selector through all the gears and wait a few sec in
> each
> to make sure that the gear is indeed engaged (I can feel a little thunk
> when reverse engages) and with the selector in Park and motor idling
> I check the fluid level - it shows the correct level in the hatched
> area.
> How is that possible? Is a filter restricted that does not allow the oil
> to flow back or something? I can't make chocolat from this one...
>
> Anybody have advice?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:04 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] What a difference tire pressure makes!
>
> I was getting more and more concerned about what seemed to be a dropping
> range on my truck, no matter what I did the consumption did not want to
> go down much and I could barely maintain 55 on the freeway.
> I had inflated the tires a month ago when I started driving this truck
> but at that time they were warm so I had slightly over-inflated them (35
> PSI max cold pressure so I had put a little over 40 in them as Light
> Truck tires are required by law to allow at least 5 PSI over max
> sidewall cold pressure) and when I checked both rear tires now they were
> indeed still close to 40 (I did put a few extra PSI in them anyway) but
> the front tires had lost more, one was down close to only 25 PSI, so I
> pumped all of them to around 42 (this EV is never going to heat up its
> tires like an ICE truck that can do max speed for hours at a time).
>
> Now it easily maintains 55 on the freeway except on one long overpass
> and I arrived at work with the consumption meter showing 63% SoC while
> earlier it usually showed between 55 and 58% depending on the number of
> times I would have to stop for a light.
>
> The truck is still taking too much power to drive a constant 55, at
> least to my liking the 200A draw at 110V or approx 22kW is still
> relatively high when compared to the 15kW that I would like to see for
> this type of trip. But at least the 400Wh per mile is more acceptable
> than the 500+Wh that I saw earlier when running in lower gear (more loss
> in the automatic) and too low tire pressure.
>
> Eventually I may bring the tire pressure up to 50 PSI cold so it is
> equal to the pressure in my S10 (which also had tires that had max 35 on
> the sidewall but needed 50 to avoid rolling over the tire thread and
> drive on the sidewall in a quick turn).
>
> Then I may need to see if I can do something about the tranny - both the
> occasional leak from the fill tube as well as putting synthetic oil in
> to see if that will further reduce the losses.
> And of course, avoid the more than 2" overfill that my transmission has
> today. That can't be good for efficiency either.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-05-2012, 11:55 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
EVDL List Bot
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
EVDL List is on a distinguished road
Default Re: [EVDL] Automatic transmission question

Since I got so confusing readings from my transmission oil
level, I decided to drain the fluid and see if I could also
drop the pan to look inside for any debris or other signs of
problems (like the suggested front satellite going out).

While I was successful in draining the oil and more than
4 quarts came out, while it is supposed to be only 3 quarts,
I could not get the pan off even after consulting the internet
and finding the suggestion to use a rubber mallet to hit the
corners of the pan - no change. Maybe because the truck still
stood on its wheels and there was not too much clearance
(I did not want to swing and lose control, send the half-full
oil catchment pan flying...) and only later that evening did I
get the suggestion to re-purpose an old wood chisel to get the
pan gasket broken loose. Oh well, I may have to do this again
soon. Since too much oil came out, I poured only 3 quarts back
in but on two occasions while I was under way and came to a stop
the transmission hesitated to engage.
So, either the fluid level is now too low or the valve body
has shaken some debris loose and I will need to clean it soon.
To find out if it is the first or last cause, I poured another
half quart in the transmission so it certainly should not be
too low, we will find out if it still hesitates.
The hesitation allows the motor to pick up speed without
engaging the transmission, as if it is still in Neutral.
But I had it happen both in R and in O so it is not likely that
it is mis-alignment of the selector. Maybe I will try driving
in D (Drive, 3rd gear) instead of in O (Overdrive, 4th gear)
for a while to see if that makes a difference. The transmission
does not engage Overdrive anyway, so that it a pointer to either
the valve body or to the solenoid to disable Overdrive.

Ahhh - the joys of a complex machine. I think I like the
simplicity of a manual transmission better!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Thos True
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 5:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Automatic transmission question

If your vehicle has atorque converter (as most automatic transmissions
do), then the fluid level will drop while the vehicle is runnung as the
torque converter will be "storing" about 3-5 quarts of fluid while it is
spinning.
When it stops spinning, about 2 quarts of the fluid ebbs back into the
transmission's valve body, giving you that high mark reading.
As a result, the only way to get an accurate measurement is to park on a
level surface, set the emergency brake, then place the the transmission
in neutral (with the motor on), and then check the level. On some
vehicles, placing it in park still affects the level (most vehicles, it
is just a locking pin, but on some it is a clamping band).
Hope this helps.
-Tom
[quote] "Cor van de Water" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> My Ford Ranger has an automatic 4 gear Light Duty transmission (that
> is why it has code A4LD) and I am baffled by one thing:
> I hear from everyone that the transmission fluid level should be
> higher when running than when it is cold and not running.
> However if I check the fluid level with everything off then the level
> shows an inch above the hatched (do not fill) warm/running area which
> is more than 2 inches above the top one of two small holes in the
> dipstick that should indicate the level at cold/not running.
> When I start the car, the motor will run at idling speed of somewhere
> between 200-300 RPM and I can blip the throttle to boost that, I move
> the gear selector through all the gears and wait a few sec in each to
> make sure that the gear is indeed engaged (I can feel a little thunk
> when reverse engages) and with the selector in Park and motor idling I

> check the fluid level - it shows the correct level in the hatched
> area.
> How is that possible? Is a filter restricted that does not allow the
> oil to flow back or something? I can't make chocolat from this one...
>
> Anybody have advice?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:04 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] What a difference tire pressure makes!
>
> I was getting more and more concerned about what seemed to be a
> dropping range on my truck, no matter what I did the consumption did
> not want to go down much and I could barely maintain 55 on the
freeway.
> I had inflated the tires a month ago when I started driving this truck

> but at that time they were warm so I had slightly over-inflated them
> (35 PSI max cold pressure so I had put a little over 40 in them as
> Light Truck tires are required by law to allow at least 5 PSI over max

> sidewall cold pressure) and when I checked both rear tires now they
> were indeed still close to 40 (I did put a few extra PSI in them
> anyway) but the front tires had lost more, one was down close to only
> 25 PSI, so I pumped all of them to around 42 (this EV is never going
> to heat up its tires like an ICE truck that can do max speed for hours
at a time).
>
> Now it easily maintains 55 on the freeway except on one long overpass
> and I arrived at work with the consumption meter showing 63% SoC while

> earlier it usually showed between 55 and 58% depending on the number
> of times I would have to stop for a light.
>
> The truck is still taking too much power to drive a constant 55, at
> least to my liking the 200A draw at 110V or approx 22kW is still
> relatively high when compared to the 15kW that I would like to see for

> this type of trip. But at least the 400Wh per mile is more acceptable
> than the 500+Wh that I saw earlier when running in lower gear (more
> loss in the automatic) and too low tire pressure.
>
> Eventually I may bring the tire pressure up to 50 PSI cold so it is
> equal to the pressure in my S10 (which also had tires that had max 35
> on the sidewall but needed 50 to avoid rolling over the tire thread
> and drive on the sidewall in a quick turn).
>
> Then I may need to see if I can do something about the tranny - both
> the occasional leak from the fill tube as well as putting synthetic
> oil in to see if that will further reduce the losses.
> And of course, avoid the more than 2" overfill that my transmission
> has today. That can't be good for efficiency either.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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