[EVDL List]

So I was getting a little nervous reading the recent threads on
registration and insurance of EVs. I'm still in the research /
learning stage and I haven't committed monetarily to anything yet; so
I'm still reasonably open with regards to a final implementation.
I made two calls yesterday, one to my insurance to get the ball
rolling (I proposed to hypothetically convert my current car; they'll
get back to me...), the other call was to the Vehicle Engineering
department of the Quebec DOT (SAAQ).

I asked the SAAQ if they had guidelines beyond their publication
"Modified and Hand-Crafted Vehicles".
Ref (in French, like all our Provincial legislation):
http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/publications/dossiers_speciaux/veh_modif_artisan.pdf

In Quebec, all vehicles on which modifications have been made to the
chassis (including transmission and drive) or body from the production
car original; or vehicles which have been built from the ground up
(including kit cars) fall into such a category. The original document
seemed mostly geared to hot-rodding and pimping of vehicles (rules for
window-tinting, suspension jacking or dropping, exhaust mods, etc.).
It was badly lacking in EV related guidelines (battery boxes, safety
disconnects, etc.).

I was pleasantly surprised that they actually had an answer; they have
seen the trend towards EVs and are trying to address the situation.
They were working on some guidelines and be elaborating on them over
the summer.

These are the guidelines they had to date:
1 - Meet all the requirements set out in the aforementioned guide.
2 - Respect the weight distribution of the vehicle
3 - Batteries must be securely anchored
4 - Vacuum pump must be installed for the power-braking system
5 - A heating and window defrosting system must be present
6 - Batteries must be installed outside of the passenger compartment
in a ventilated location with a drain for electrolyte.
7 - The accessory bus must be run from an independent battery than the
traction battery pack.
8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
9 - Following the conversion the vehicle must undergo a mechanical inspection
10 - The report will be forwarded to the vehicle engineering
department for final approval.

Faced with this set of guidelines; which seemed a little zealous,
slightly under informed and lacking in some obvious aspects, it
occurred to me that I might want to be proactive and educate them with
regards to what are considered 'best practices' in EV design; in the
hopes that they will endorse a set of guidelines that don't limit
creativity and ingenuity while still keeping safety in mind.

The idea is that self-regulation based on hundreds of cumulative years
EV experience is going to be way better than what the bureaucrats can
come up with (even with their best intentions, they are simply lacking
the experience and resources).


That said, here comes the totally open-ended question:
What would you consider are 'best practices' in EV Design?

[If you've already written down your thoughts somewhere else, post a
link if you prefer]

Thanks,

-Nick

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[quote]On 29 May 2008 at 10:50, nicolas drouin wrote:

> 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
>

So a 2004+ Prius is OK if it's stock, but not if you convert it to plug
operation?

What a strange rule.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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It must be related to the batteries being in the passenger compartment -- I
guess it's okay if they are in the trunk, but not if they are just behind
the rear seat. But what if they were all under the floor?

Z

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:58 AM, EVDL Administrator <xxx@xxx.xxx>
[quote]wrote:

> On 29 May 2008 at 10:50, nicolas drouin [quote]wrote:
>
> > 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
> >
>
> So a 2004+ Prius is OK if it's stock, but not if you convert it to plug
> operation?
>
> What a strange rule.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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The new EV FAQ has a lot of safety information (the OLD version is up
at evparts.com, but the safety stuff has not changed much). Also, Bob
Batson of http://www.ev-america.com/ offers a free safety paper that is
really good. They have a link for that on the left of their home page.

[quote]--- nicolas drouin <nicolas.xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> So I was getting a little nervous reading the recent threads on
> registration and insurance of EVs. I'm still in the research /
> learning stage and I haven't committed monetarily to anything yet; so
> I'm still reasonably open with regards to a final implementation.
> I made two calls yesterday, one to my insurance to get the ball
> rolling (I proposed to hypothetically convert my current car; they'll
> get back to me...), the other call was to the Vehicle Engineering
> department of the Quebec DOT (SAAQ).
>
> I asked the SAAQ if they had guidelines beyond their publication
> "Modified and Hand-Crafted Vehicles".
> Ref (in French, like all our Provincial legislation):
>
http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/publications/dossiers_speciaux/veh_modif_artisan.pdf
>
> In Quebec, all vehicles on which modifications have been made to
> the
> chassis (including transmission and drive) or body from the
> production
> car original; or vehicles which have been built from the ground up
> (including kit cars) fall into such a category. The original
> document
> seemed mostly geared to hot-rodding and pimping of vehicles (rules
> for
> window-tinting, suspension jacking or dropping, exhaust mods, etc.).
> It was badly lacking in EV related guidelines (battery boxes, safety
> disconnects, etc.).
>
> I was pleasantly surprised that they actually had an answer; they
> have
> seen the trend towards EVs and are trying to address the situation.
> They were working on some guidelines and be elaborating on them over
> the summer.
>
> These are the guidelines they had to date:
> 1 - Meet all the requirements set out in the aforementioned guide.
> 2 - Respect the weight distribution of the vehicle
> 3 - Batteries must be securely anchored
> 4 - Vacuum pump must be installed for the power-braking system
> 5 - A heating and window defrosting system must be present
> 6 - Batteries must be installed outside of the passenger compartment
> in a ventilated location with a drain for electrolyte.
> 7 - The accessory bus must be run from an independent battery than
> the
> traction battery pack.
> 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
> 9 - Following the conversion the vehicle must undergo a mechanical
> inspection
> 10 - The report will be forwarded to the vehicle engineering
> department for final approval.
>
> Faced with this set of guidelines; which seemed a little zealous,
> slightly under informed and lacking in some obvious aspects, it
> occurred to me that I might want to be proactive and educate them
> with
> regards to what are considered 'best practices' in EV design; in the
> hopes that they will endorse a set of guidelines that don't limit
> creativity and ingenuity while still keeping safety in mind.
>
> The idea is that self-regulation based on hundreds of cumulative
> years
> EV experience is going to be way better than what the bureaucrats can
> come up with (even with their best intentions, they are simply
> lacking
> the experience and resources).
>
>
> That said, here comes the totally open-ended question:
> What would you consider are 'best practices' in EV Design?
>
> [If you've already written down your thoughts somewhere else, post a
> link if you prefer]
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


David Brandt







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And I have a Mazda 626 hatchback I'm hoping to convert.

I'm not surprised to see that prohibition for the reasons you note.
However, I would think if the batteries are in a structural, sealed box,
an allowance could be made. Of course guess what is between the trunk
and the rear seat of most (non-hatchback) cars? Pressboard and some
open steelwork. Fold down rear seats are probably even less sturdy.

SteveS

[quote]nicolas drouin wrote:
> Yeah, I own two hatches: Hyundai Elantra GT and Suzuki Ario Fastback
> both reasonable candidates for a conversion. I was none-too-thrilled
> I've already asked why:
>
> Essentially it boils down to "no acid in the cabin". The press-wood
> wall, often removable or not present, of the hatch is not considered
> enough of a barrier in case of electrolyte spillage in a roll-over or
> rear-end collision.
> Makes sense if you're using floodies, not much sense otherwise: it
> will be a point I will make when responding to the SAAQ. In
> particular, I mentioned gel, agm and LiFePoly as battery candidates.
>
>
>
> On 5/29/08, EVDL Administrator <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> On 29 May 2008 at 10:50, [quote]nicolas drouin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>> So a 2004+ Prius is OK if it's stock, but not if you convert it to plug
>> operation?
>>
>> What a strange rule.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM
>

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[quote]EVDL Administrator wrote:
> On 29 May 2008 at 10:50, nicolas drouin wrote:
>> 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.

> So a 2004+ Prius is OK if it's stock, but not if you convert it to plug
> operation?

It would appear the 2004+ Prius violates this standard right from the
factory. It is a hatchback, and the EV batteries are in back, under the
floor. It has an EV mode (can drive it as a pure EV) in every country
except the USA. All you have to do is add the missing pushbutton to
engage "EV mode".

So by this law, adding nothing but this pushbutton make the car illegal?
Rubbish!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Clarification;

I think those standards listed were from just one state or province,
not for the entire country.

Prius batteries are not under the floor, they are behind the rear
seat above the rear axle in a semi-sealed enclosure securely bolted to
the chassis. They vent externally i.e. not into the passenger
compartment.

The EV button is not in Canadian market Priuses either.

>>
>
> It would appear the 2004+ Prius violates this standard right from the
> factory. It is a hatchback, and the EV batteries are in back, under
> the
> floor. It has an EV mode (can drive it as a pure EV) in every country
> except the USA. All you have to do is add the missing pushbutton to
> engage "EV mode".
>
> So by this law, adding nothing but this pushbutton make the car
> illegal?
> Rubbish!

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The reason why they cannot use the EV switch in the U.S. is that the battery
technology in that car or any car cannot be use over a certain ampere-hour
using the chemistry in the battery that is one oil company has the patent
rights to.

If you change the chemistry of the battery, but still is a Li-Ion battery
structure, this is consider the pioneer patent of the original design. No
longer can one person patent a device, and than change a resistor or a bolt
or electrolyte and then re-patented it.

I think this can only be done for a certain amount of times, which the
original patent holder can make a change. I think this is for about
seventeen years.

So in 1991 when this battery chemistry was bought by the oil company, we
should be able to use it in 1991 + 17 = 2008 which is this year some time.

I just written to the big man in Washington about this, and lets see what
happens.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best Practices in EV Design


[quote]> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 29 May 2008 at 10:50, nicolas drouin wrote:
> >> 8 - Hatch-back vehicles are prohibited.
>
> > So a 2004+ Prius is OK if it's stock, but not if you convert it to plug
> > operation?
>
> It would appear the 2004+ Prius violates this standard right from the
> factory. It is a hatchback, and the EV batteries are in back, under the
> floor. It has an EV mode (can drive it as a pure EV) in every country
> except the USA. All you have to do is add the missing pushbutton to
> engage "EV mode".
>
> So by this law, adding nothing but this pushbutton make the car illegal?
> Rubbish!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[quote]Roland Wiench wrote:
> I just written to the big man in Washington about this, and lets see what should be able to use it in 1991 + 17 = 2008 which is this year some time.
> happens.
>
>
Actually patent terms in the U.S. are now 20 years, you'll have to wait
for 2011.

--
Paul Wujek (xxx@xxx.xxx)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwujek

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At 17 years you can renew it for another 17 years, which made it 34 years.
Is the 20 years a final period of time?

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best Practices in EV Design


[quote]> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I just written to the big man in Washington about this, and lets see
> > what should be able to use it in 1991 + 17 = 2008 which is this year
> > some time.
> > happens.
> >
> >
> Actually patent terms in the U.S. are now 20 years, you'll have to wait
> for 2011.
>
> --
> Paul Wujek (xxx@xxx.xxx)
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwujek
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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