[EVDL List]

Hey everyone,

I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
of a cell limit).

I'd like to charge up the pack and wait for the mini bms to turn off the charger.
I'd then like to bypass the early achiever cells (about 10 cells) and do another
charger cycle.

Will my charger be ok with this? I know it won't give me quite the right
ending curve... I would just charge until I get more cells to a higher voltage.
I wasn't sure if a lower pack voltage seen by the charger would be a bad thing.

thanks,
b-en

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[EVDL List]

Actually, I found the one I bought from batteryspace.com:


Smart Charger (6.0A) for 3.2V (1cells) LiFePO4 Battery Pack, 100-240VAC, CE listed
CH-LFP3.2V6A 1 $25.95 $25.95

corbin



[quote] corbin dunn <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> Hi Ben,
> A better thing to do is to individually charge the low cells. When I got my TS cells, a few were low and took quite a bit of extra charging (at low amps) to get them up to the same as the others.
>
> I got a cheap ~3.6v Lithium charger. If you need help finding one, let me know and I can dig up the model I bought.
>
> corbin
>
> On Jun 15, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Ben Jarrett <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
>> shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
>> charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
>> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
>> 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
>> of a cell limit).
>>
>> I'd like to charge up the pack and wait for the mini bms to turn off the charger.
>> I'd then like to bypass the early achiever cells (about 10 cells) and do another
>> charger cycle.
>>
>> Will my charger be ok with this? I know it won't give me quite the right
>> ending curve... I would just charge until I get more cells to a higher voltage.
>> I wasn't sure if a lower pack voltage seen by the charger would be a bad thing.
>>
>> thanks,
>> b-en
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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[EVDL List]

[quote] Ben Jarrett wrote:
>
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
> shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
> charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
> 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
> of a cell limit).

Did you do the initial "top balance". If not, you should. It is
likely that cells within your three groups are also not balanced.
As you probably know, you are not balanced until all BMS cell modules
have their red LEDs on.

As Corbin says, you can get an individual cell charger to bring up
cells one at a time. You can also use one or several power supplies
that have max voltage set appropriately.

I have a "balancing charger" which is four 45v power supplies in
series. The power supplies put out less current than the BMS cell
modules can by-pass; that is due to a Lee Hart inspired light bulb
arrangement. After a charge with a regular charger, I hook up the
balancing charger for hours and let it bring up the low cells. The
balancing charger is hooked up the same way as a regular charger; that
is, the BMS controls the ac input.

It is unlikely that your Elcon charger can detect 80% SOC on a lithium
pack. That is probably there due to the charger's lead applications.
I did find a TC/Elcon charger that just happened to do the right thing
for my particular pack for my BMS thresholds. For 48 cells with low
high voltage cutoff modules, the charger will taper down to less than
an amp as it nears it's maximum voltage (185v for my charger). That
allows cell modules to by-pass for a long period of time. I would say
that generally a charger is not likely to be so well matched to your
pack. "Charger Profile" is an almost meaningless term when the pack is
lithium.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 87 days 23 hours 10 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Hi Ben,
A better thing to do is to individually charge the low cells. When I got my TS cells, a few were low and took quite a bit of extra charging (at low amps) to get them up to the same as the others.

I got a cheap ~3.6v Lithium charger. If you need help finding one, let me know and I can dig up the model I bought.

corbin

[quote] Ben Jarrett <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
> shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
> charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
> 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
> of a cell limit).
>
> I'd like to charge up the pack and wait for the mini bms to turn off the charger.
> I'd then like to bypass the early achiever cells (about 10 cells) and do another
> charger cycle.
>
> Will my charger be ok with this? I know it won't give me quite the right
> ending curve... I would just charge until I get more cells to a higher voltage.
> I wasn't sure if a lower pack voltage seen by the charger would be a bad thing.
>
> thanks,
> b-en
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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[EVDL List]

Change the algorithm in the charger to the next higher voltage and recharge
letting the BMS control the charger. The charger is shutting off too soon.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/charger-question-bypassing-batteries-tp4655708p4655722.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[EVDL List]

Willie's solution is good too, provided you have a charger setup that way.

Another alternative is to connect all the cells in parallel; this makes the total Ah rating be the additive some of each individual cells Ah rating, and the voltage is equal to a single cell's voltage. However, I choose not to do this approach for several reasons:
1. I would have to rewire my pack (even temporarily using low-current capable wires), which would have been a pain.
2. It would still take a while to get all the cells equalized, since one has to put in a bunch of amp-hours for the entire pack in order to reach full charge.

The nice thing about using a small 3.2v LifePo4 charger on single cells is that the charger is essentially a single-cell BMS, and you shouldn't be able to overcharge that single cell with it (I say shouldn't, because who knows what crazy things could happen).

corbin


[quote] Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:11:11PM -0500, Ben Jarrett wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
>> shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
>> charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
>> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
>> 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
>> of a cell limit).
>
> Did you do the initial "top balance". If not, you should. It is
> likely that cells within your three groups are also not balanced.
> As you probably know, you are not balanced until all BMS cell modules
> have their red LEDs on.
>
> As Corbin says, you can get an individual cell charger to bring up
> cells one at a time. You can also use one or several power supplies
> that have max voltage set appropriately.
>
> I have a "balancing charger" which is four 45v power supplies in
> series. The power supplies put out less current than the BMS cell
> modules can by-pass; that is due to a Lee Hart inspired light bulb
> arrangement. After a charge with a regular charger, I hook up the
> balancing charger for hours and let it bring up the low cells. The
> balancing charger is hooked up the same way as a regular charger; that
> is, the BMS controls the ac input.
>
> It is unlikely that your Elcon charger can detect 80% SOC on a lithium
> pack. That is probably there due to the charger's lead applications.
> I did find a TC/Elcon charger that just happened to do the right thing
> for my particular pack for my BMS thresholds. For 48 cells with low
> high voltage cutoff modules, the charger will taper down to less than
> an amp as it nears it's maximum voltage (185v for my charger). That
> allows cell modules to by-pass for a long period of time. I would say
> that generally a charger is not likely to be so well matched to your
> pack. "Charger Profile" is an almost meaningless term when the pack is
> lithium.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 87 days 23 hours 10 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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[EVDL List]

I am using a Sky Charger that I bought from Xheli through Amazon. It looks
like it isn't through Amazon any more but can be obtained from xheli.com
directly.

http://www.xheli.com/skychb6durcc.html?gclid=CPWVkZec07ACFaYaQgodw1c14g

This charger supports lead-acid, LiFePO4, NiCd, NiMH. It is intended for RC
models, but works really well to charge 1-6 cells on our cars. It has an
output of up to 5A or 50W. Costs about $55.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of corbin dunn
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 10:18 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] charger question - bypassing batteries
>
> Willie's solution is good too, provided you have a charger setup that way.
>
> Another alternative is to connect all the cells in parallel; this makes
the total
> Ah rating be the additive some of each individual cells Ah rating, and the
> voltage is equal to a single cell's voltage. However, I choose not to do
this
> approach for several reasons:
> 1. I would have to rewire my pack (even temporarily using low-current
> capable wires), which would have been a pain.
> 2. It would still take a while to get all the cells equalized, since one
has to put
> in a bunch of amp-hours for the entire pack in order to reach full charge.
>
> The nice thing about using a small 3.2v LifePo4 charger on single cells is
that
> the charger is essentially a single-cell BMS, and you shouldn't be able to
> overcharge that single cell with it (I say shouldn't, because who knows
what
> crazy things could happen).
>
> corbin
>
>
> [quote] Willie McKemie wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:11:11PM -0500, Ben Jarrett wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey everyone,
> >>
> >> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms. My Calbs
> >> shipped in 3 separate boxes. Now that I've had a decent number of
> >> charging cycles, I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
> >> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I
> >> reach 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off
> >> because of a cell limit).
> >
> > Did you do the initial "top balance". If not, you should. It is
> > likely that cells within your three groups are also not balanced.
> > As you probably know, you are not balanced until all BMS cell modules
> > have their red LEDs on.
> >
> > As Corbin says, you can get an individual cell charger to bring up
> > cells one at a time. You can also use one or several power supplies
> > that have max voltage set appropriately.
> >
> > I have a "balancing charger" which is four 45v power supplies in
> > series. The power supplies put out less current than the BMS cell
> > modules can by-pass; that is due to a Lee Hart inspired light bulb
> > arrangement. After a charge with a regular charger, I hook up the
> > balancing charger for hours and let it bring up the low cells. The
> > balancing charger is hooked up the same way as a regular charger; that
> > is, the BMS controls the ac input.
> >
> > It is unlikely that your Elcon charger can detect 80% SOC on a lithium
> > pack. That is probably there due to the charger's lead applications.
> > I did find a TC/Elcon charger that just happened to do the right thing
> > for my particular pack for my BMS thresholds. For 48 cells with low
> > high voltage cutoff modules, the charger will taper down to less than
> > an amp as it nears it's maximum voltage (185v for my charger). That
> > allows cell modules to by-pass for a long period of time. I would say
> > that generally a charger is not likely to be so well matched to your
> > pack. "Charger Profile" is an almost meaningless term when the pack
> > is lithium.
> >
> > --
> > Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> > http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> > Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 87 days 23 hours 10 minutes
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[EVDL List]

I forgot to mention in the last post: One of the things I really like about
the Sky Charger is the information display. As it's charging, it shows how
many amps it's charging at and how many Ah (milli Ah actually) it has put
into the cells. This lets you know exactly how far from balanced your cells
really are. When I first used the charger, I had some cells that were 20%
low!

Also, even if you charge 5 or 6 cells in a string (helps speed things up),
it charges at a low enough current that your MiniBMS shunts can probably
keep up. For the first balancing charge, though, I did one cell at a time.
I think I would recommend doing that. Once things are closer into balance,
you can charge several cells at a time.

My experience with the Elcon charger on my pack is that it won't go into its
finishing stage (LED turns yellow), until 1/2 to 2/3 of the cells are
starting to shunt. I found that I needed to go through the cycle of
charging lower cells with the Sky Charger a couple of times before the
charger could completely finish the charge cycle.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] charger question - bypassing batteries
>
> I am using a Sky Charger that I bought from Xheli through Amazon. It
looks
> like it isn't through Amazon any more but can be obtained from xheli.com
> directly.
>
> http://www.xheli.com/skychb6durcc.html?gclid=CPWVkZec07ACFaYaQgodw
> 1c14g
>
> This charger supports lead-acid, LiFePO4, NiCd, NiMH. It is intended for
RC
> models, but works really well to charge 1-6 cells on our cars. It has an
output
> of up to 5A or 50W. Costs about $55.
>
> Mike
>

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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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[EVDL List]

[quote]Ben Jarrett wrote:
> I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms...
> I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging
> before the rest. Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach
> 80% soc and I haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because
> of a cell limit).

As others have said, it sounds like your cells are unbalanced, and the
charger and BMS are not correcting the problem.

What should be happening is that the BMS warns the charger when the
first cell reaches its maximum voltage limit. The charger should then
cut back to a low current, so it won't overpower the shunt regulators in
the mini-BMS. Then when the charger detects that all cells are full, it
shuts off.

Instead, it sounds like your charger shuts off as soon as the BMS
detects a high cell. By shutting off at this point, the unbalance is
detected, but not corrected.

Your best bet is probably to get a single-cell charger for your cells,
and use it to individually charge each cell until it is full (top balance).

Then, modify the charger or BMS so it continues to charge at low current
when the first cells start to bypass. I'm not familiar with your
charger, but it might be as simple as having a timer delay the turn-off
for an hour or two to give the shunt regulators in the BMS time to do
their job.

--
Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money
will get you through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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[EVDL List]

Hi Lee,

I have similar cells, BMS and charger to Ben's. The system is not as
intelligent as you describe. The charger decides on its own (from the
current charging voltage and its built-in program) when to switch to lower
current. It won't do that unless the cells are pretty well matched. The
BMS doesn't have any communication with the charger about cells at the
shunting level.

Again, as the first cell reaches its overvoltage limit, the BMS doesn't
inform the charger, but instead cuts power to the charger through an AC
relay.

The MiniBMS system and Elcon charger combination will work fine once the
cells are balanced. However, in my experience, they are not sufficient to
bring the system into balance if it is very far off. The charger is simply
charging with too much current still if the cells are significantly out of
balance.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:48 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] charger question - bypassing batteries
>
[quote]> Ben Jarrett wrote:
> > I have 50 Calb cells, 2 kW Elcon charger, and a mini bms...
> > I noticed that one of the batches finishes charging before the rest.
> > Also, my elcon is supposed to go to yellow when I reach 80% soc and I
> > haven't seen that yet (mini bms shuts charger off because of a cell
> > limit).
>
> As others have said, it sounds like your cells are unbalanced, and the
charger
> and BMS are not correcting the problem.
>
> What should be happening is that the BMS warns the charger when the first
> cell reaches its maximum voltage limit. The charger should then cut back
to a
> low current, so it won't overpower the shunt regulators in the mini-BMS.
> Then when the charger detects that all cells are full, it shuts off.
>
> Instead, it sounds like your charger shuts off as soon as the BMS detects
a
> high cell. By shutting off at this point, the unbalance is detected, but
not
> corrected.
>
> Your best bet is probably to get a single-cell charger for your cells, and
use it
> to individually charge each cell until it is full (top balance).
>
> Then, modify the charger or BMS so it continues to charge at low current
> when the first cells start to bypass. I'm not familiar with your charger,
but it
> might be as simple as having a timer delay the turn-off for an hour or two
to
> give the shunt regulators in the BMS time to do their job.
>
> --
> Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money
> will get you through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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