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  #1  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:05 AM
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Default [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Until now, I've been mostly limiting my EV driving to surface roads. But recently, I've started using I-15 and I-80 for my daily commute. This is the first time that I regret going clutchless in the EV. The reason is that the Interstates are pretty hilly here. When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of highway.

Bill

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  #2  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

[quote] Bill Dennis wrote:
> Until now, I've been mostly limiting my EV driving to surface roads. But recently, I've started using I-15 and I-80 for my daily commute. This is the first time that I regret going clutchless in the EV. The reason is that the Interstates are pretty hilly here. When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of highway.

WOW! What is you motor speed at 65mph in 3rd?

I'm happy keeping my motor speed above 2000rpm. Whenever I get above
4000rpm, I think about upshifting. I have my controller cut out set at
5000rpm. At 65 mph, I'm thinking about going from 4th to 5th which is
an overdrive.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 100 days 3 hours 20 minutes

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  #3  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

I calculate 5800 rpm in 3rd. It's an ADC 8-inch motor, and the specs I've seen say 8000 rpm red line and 6000 max continuous. Would 4th be better on the highway anyway?

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Willie McKemie <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:26:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

[quote] Bill Dennis wrote:
> Until now, I've been mostly limiting my EV driving to surface roads. But recently, I've started using I-15 and I-80 for my daily commute. This is the first time that I regret going clutchless in the EV. The reason is that the Interstates are pretty hilly here. When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of highway.

WOW! What is you motor speed at 65mph in 3rd?

I'm happy keeping my motor speed above 2000rpm. Whenever I get above
4000rpm, I think about upshifting. I have my controller cut out set at
5000rpm. At 65 mph, I'm thinking about going from 4th to 5th which is
an overdrive.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 100 days 3 hours 20 minutes

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  #4  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

WILLIAM DENNIS Owner wrote
>
> when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by
> shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to
> downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a
> bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of
> highway.
>
Do you already have forced air cooling? If not, you could add that then
just leave it in 4th. You would probably be closer to your motor's more
efficient band that way anyway.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-World-EV-Experiences-tp4656036p4656116.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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  #5  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Voltswagon <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:18:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate


WILLIAM DENNIS Owner wrote
>
> when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by
> shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to
> downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a
> bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of
> highway.
>
Do you already have forced air cooling? If not, you could add that then
just leave it in 4th. You would probably be closer to your motor's more
efficient band that way anyway.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-World-EV-Experiences-tp4656036p4656116.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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  #6  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
>It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
>

I'm trying to understand this.
In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM and increase current draw?
That seems backwards.


--

Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Yes, there was some discussion about this on the list recently. In 3rd gear, at the higher RPM, there isn't enough torque to maintain 65 mph. By shifting to 4th, rpms decrease, which increases amperage. Now there is enough torque to get up the hill.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:30:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
>It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
>

I'm trying to understand this.
In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM and increase current draw?
That seems backwards.


--

Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Though I had a clutch, I have experienced what Bill stated (shifting up
to a higher gear to maintain speed).

When I originally got my S-10 Blazer back from the converter, its
differential was the highest gear ratio type (its what was on the donor
vehicle from the Auto Dismantler - one donor made out of 5 vehicles).
When I wanted more torque to say, climb a steep grade, shifting-up did
the trick.

But where I am at in CA, I found it less useful to have this high
differential ratio, so I paid to have the differential swapped out for a
the second to the lowest ratio one (the S-10 has 4 different ratios to
choose from). Afterward, though I could no longer wind-up and cruise on
the highway at 85 to 90 mph, I now had a much better handle on climbing
steep mountain grades in the low gears.

After the differential change my top speed wound up at 75mph, but my 1st
gear was super low for climbing China Grade in the Santa Cruz mountains
(see the video link below, 2:00 it begins, 3:00 it gets tighter, and at
6:00 is when it is most hairy). Or if a show/EVent coordinator wanted me
to position my EV up on a steep lawn hump/hill for display [
http://blog.illumind.com/wp-content/gallery/paris/butteschamont-hillkids-custom.jpg
].

That lower geared differential is what I would recommend to S-10 donors
if you, like me, want to cruise at 55mph to minimize the
wind-pusher/amount-of-aerodynamic-drag a S-10 has. If I had to I could
wind up to higher speeds, but I preferred to let the good nedra.com folk
do the fast/performance EV driving (my EV was more of a rolling
test-bench/lead-sled).


{Informational links:
China Grade Road
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sherwoodh/3410276299/
http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/santacruzmtns.htm
http://www.trek4fun.com/trails/big%20basin%20gazos%20creek%20butano.htm

[video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qCed8MVs_tY
China Grade Road
daflyinpig on Oct 8, 2010
This is my first excursion on China Grade Road on my sportbike.
If you want to work your suspension, this is the road to do it on!
]

I-80 & I-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80#Utah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_Utah
}


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
[quote] xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:
> On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
> >It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
> >
>
> I'm trying to understand this.
> In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM
> and increase current draw?
> That seems backwards.
-

-
From: Bill Dennis <xxx@xxx.xxx>
>When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th.<

Yes, there was some discussion about this on the list recently. In 3rd
gear, at the higher RPM, there isn't enough torque to maintain 65 mph.
By shifting to 4th, rpms decrease, which increases amperage. Now there
is enough torque to get up the hill.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:15 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Yup, that is why I was happy to find out that my truck has the 4.10
differential ratio (4.1 rotations of the driveshaft to get 1
rotation of both rear wheels) so I can even consider going
direct drive, which would be more difficult with the other
ratios that are lower and give less torque multiplication and
motor speed reduction to the wheels.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Though I had a clutch, I have experienced what Bill stated (shifting up
to a higher gear to maintain speed).

When I originally got my S-10 Blazer back from the converter, its
differential was the highest gear ratio type (its what was on the donor
vehicle from the Auto Dismantler - one donor made out of 5 vehicles).
When I wanted more torque to say, climb a steep grade, shifting-up did
the trick.

But where I am at in CA, I found it less useful to have this high
differential ratio, so I paid to have the differential swapped out for a
the second to the lowest ratio one (the S-10 has 4 different ratios to
choose from). Afterward, though I could no longer wind-up and cruise on
the highway at 85 to 90 mph, I now had a much better handle on climbing
steep mountain grades in the low gears.

After the differential change my top speed wound up at 75mph, but my 1st
gear was super low for climbing China Grade in the Santa Cruz mountains
(see the video link below, 2:00 it begins, 3:00 it gets tighter, and at
6:00 is when it is most hairy). Or if a show/EVent coordinator wanted me
to position my EV up on a steep lawn hump/hill for display [
http://blog.illumind.com/wp-content/gallery/paris/butteschamont-hillkids
-custom.jpg
].

That lower geared differential is what I would recommend to S-10 donors
if you, like me, want to cruise at 55mph to minimize the
wind-pusher/amount-of-aerodynamic-drag a S-10 has. If I had to I could
wind up to higher speeds, but I preferred to let the good nedra.com folk
do the fast/performance EV driving (my EV was more of a rolling
test-bench/lead-sled).


{Informational links:
China Grade Road
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sherwoodh/3410276299/
http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/santacruzmtns.htm
http://www.trek4fun.com/trails/big%20basin%20gazos%20creek%20butano.htm

[video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qCed8MVs_tY
China Grade Road
daflyinpig on Oct 8, 2010
This is my first excursion on China Grade Road on my sportbike.
If you want to work your suspension, this is the road to do it on!
]

I-80 & I-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80#Utah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_Utah
}


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
[quote] xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:
> On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
> >It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed
add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis
1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187
amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try
driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if
they're acceptable.
> >
>
> I'm trying to understand this.
> In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce
> RPM and increase current draw?
> That seems backwards.
-

-
From: Bill Dennis <xxx@xxx.xxx>
>When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But
>when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by
>shifting to 4th.<

Yes, there was some discussion about this on the list recently. In 3rd
gear, at the higher RPM, there isn't enough torque to maintain 65 mph.
By shifting to 4th, rpms decrease, which increases amperage. Now there
is enough torque to get up the hill.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2012, 02:07 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

[quote] Lee Hart wrote:

> On 6/28/2012 11:30 AM, xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:
>> I'm trying to understand this. In order to maintain the same speed up
>> a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM and increase current draw? That
>> seems backwards.
>
> It may seem backwards, but it is correct.
>
> Since battery voltage is (roughly) constant, you get maximum horsepower
> at maximum battery current. This occurs at the point where the
> controller is 100% on but not in current limit. It will be at some
> particular motor RPM, which depends on the motor, pack voltage, and
> controller's current limit.
>
> So, to climb a hill at the fastest possible speed, shift to maximize
> battery current. This will be a downshift if motor RPM was too low, or
> an *upshift* if motor speed was too high.
>
> --
> Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has! -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
>
>

... which (to me) immediately begs the question 'Is there an app for that?" or some easy way of modifying ones instrumentation to give the driver a clue as to what s/he should do to maximise efficiency in such a scenario - or are there too many variables?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

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