[EVDL List]

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[EVDL List]

There are also GE Wattstations that people have in their homes. One of our
Maryland Leaf owners had her Leaf damaged by the Wattstation she had
installed at her home.

Dave
[quote] "brucedp5" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>
> % Leaf drivers should not use any GE WattStations from this point on
> *Link or reprint this piece to get the word out to Leaf EV drivers
>
> The following GE WattStation EVSE sites were found with a web search.
> Leaf EV drivers should not use them:
>
> Surrey City Hall - Surrey, BC - Recargo
> www.recargo.com/sites/6268/
> Jun 19, 2012 =96 Notes: GE WattStation Connect ... Type, Postion/Label,
> Network, In Use Status. J-1772, GE WattStation Connect, no in use info,
> Details/Edit ...
>
> And use
> http://google.com/#q=3D"WattStation"+carstations
> (there are 11 pages that list GE WattStation sites) %
>
>
>
> -
> [unformatted]
>
> http://www.environmentalleader.com/2012/07/19/ge-admits-wattstation-could=
-damage-nissan-leafs/
> [image] GE Admits WattStation Could Damage Nissan Leafs
> Jul 19 2012
>
> General Electric=92s WattStation electric vehicle charging unit is damagi=
ng
> the on-board chargers of some Nissan Leafs, GE has admitted.
>
> GE Energy issued a statement saying that the company is =93actively worki=
ng
> with Nissan to help determine the source of this issue,=94 a New York Tim=
es
> blog reports.
>
> The problem has so far affected 11 Leafs. One San Francisco-area dealersh=
ip
> emailed customers last week warning them that using the WattStation may
> make
> it impossible to recharge the car, reports PlugIn cars. The email, sent by
> Hanlee Hilltop Nissan of San Pablo, Calif., said that Nissan had document=
ed
> multiple occurrences of Leafs losing their ability to charge after using
> the
> WattStation.
>
> But Nissan North America told the Times that it has no official policy
> instructing customers not to use the charger.
>
> According to AutoblogGreen, the problem is probably related to a diode on
> the car=92s on-board recharging system. The problem should not affect oth=
er
> models of electric vehicle, AutoblogGreen reports.
>
> The WattStation was unveiled in 2011 at the Plug-In 2011 Conference and
> Exposition. The charging unit was initially available at just five Lowes
> home improvement stores in California before being made available at 60
> stores across the US and on Lowes.com. In November 2011, GE finalized a
> sale
> and distribution agreement with EV manufacturer CODA Automotive, which
> gives
> buyers a chance to bundle the WattStation with their car purchase. The
> following month Amazon.com announced it had started selling the unit ...
> [=A9 2012 Environmental Leader All rights reserved]
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EValert-GE-W=
attStation-Damages-Leaf-EVs-can-no-longer-charge-from-any-EVSE-tp4656641.ht=
ml
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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[EVDL List]

I have updated the nabble evdl archive listing for this post
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EValert-GE-WattStation-Damages-Leaf-EVs-can-no-longer-charge-from-any-EVSE-tp4656641.html
Please use it when linking or reprinting.


IMO: some might consider this is a 'The sky is falling' EValert, but if
there is any chance that a driver's Leaf EV will be damaged so the EV
can no longer charge from any EVSE, then short of regularly towing the
Leaf EV to a L3 EVSE, the pack will soon brick. It is just not worth
that happening.


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
[quote] Dave Davidson wrote:
> There are also GE Wattstations that people have in their homes. One of
> our
> Maryland Leaf owners had her Leaf damaged by the Wattstation she had
> installed at her home.
>
> Dave
> On Jul 19, 2012 12:23 PM, "brucedp5" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Perhaps we could call these GE chargers Leaf Blowers

/Bob

[quote] Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

> I have updated the nabble evdl archive listing for this post
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EValert-GE-WattStation-Damages-Leaf-EVs-can-no-longer-charge-from-any-EVSE-tp4656641.html
> Please use it when linking or reprinting.
>
>
> IMO: some might consider this is a 'The sky is falling' EValert, but if
> there is any chance that a driver's Leaf EV will be damaged so the EV
> can no longer charge from any EVSE, then short of regularly towing the
> Leaf EV to a L3 EVSE, the pack will soon brick. It is just not worth
> that happening.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> -
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Dave Davidson wrote:
>> There are also GE Wattstations that people have in their homes. One of
>> our
>> Maryland Leaf owners had her Leaf damaged by the Wattstation she had
>> installed at her home.
>>
>> Dave
>> On Jul 19, 2012 12:23 PM, "brucedp5" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> -
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Sheeooot it took a minute for that to sink in... Good call.

[quote] Robert Siebert <xxx@xxx.xxx>wrote:

> Perhaps we could call these GE chargers Leaf Blowers
>
> /Bob
>
> On Jul 19, 2012, at 9:46 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
>
> > I have updated the nabble evdl archive listing for this post
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EValert-GE-WattStation-Damages-Leaf-EVs-can-no-longer-charge-from-any-EVSE-tp4656641.html
> > Please use it when linking or reprinting.
> >
> >
> > IMO: some might consider this is a 'The sky is falling' EValert, but if
> > there is any chance that a driver's Leaf EV will be damaged so the EV
> > can no longer charge from any EVSE, then short of regularly towing the
> > Leaf EV to a L3 EVSE, the pack will soon brick. It is just not worth
> > that happening.
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Dave Davidson wrote:
> >> There are also GE Wattstations that people have in their homes. One of
> >> our
> >> Maryland Leaf owners had her Leaf damaged by the Wattstation she had
> >> installed at her home.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >> On Jul 19, 2012 12:23 PM, "brucedp5" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > -
> >
> > --
> > http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Anybody having technical info about this issue?
What is the reason a charging station can cause
damage to a Leaf? In essence all there is boils
down to a GFCI enabled 240V grid outlet with contactor
and a +/- 12V signal to handshake when charging happens.
Does the 12V signal not conform to spec and either
damage the circuit in the Leaf or is it as silly as the
charge station does not fully implement the proper protocol
so the charger does not actually charge and the Leaf dies
from never being charged up?

The only technical detail I could find was that it had to
do with a diode in the EV, which leads me to suspect that
it has to do with the +/-12V pilot signal and if the
charging station does not fully implement the proper
protocol (which some stations do not) and for example
omit the -12V signal and send 0V instead, then the car might
decide not to charge from that station....

Inquiring minds like to know...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Dave Davidson
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EValert: GE WattStation Damages Leaf EVs = can no
longer charge from any EVSE

There are also GE Wattstations that people have in their homes. One of
our Maryland Leaf owners had her Leaf damaged by the Wattstation she had
installed at her home.

Dave
[quote] "brucedp5" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>
> % Leaf drivers should not use any GE WattStations from this point on
> *Link or reprint this piece to get the word out to Leaf EV drivers
>
> The following GE WattStation EVSE sites were found with a web
search.
> Leaf EV drivers should not use them:
>
> Surrey City Hall - Surrey, BC - Recargo www.recargo.com/sites/6268/
> Jun 19, 2012 - Notes: GE WattStation Connect ... Type, Postion/Label,
> Network, In Use Status. J-1772, GE WattStation Connect, no in use
> info, Details/Edit ...
>
> And use
> http://google.com/#q="WattStation"+carstations
> (there are 11 pages that list GE WattStation sites) %
>
>
>
> -
> [unformatted]
>
> http://www.environmentalleader.com/2012/07/19/ge-admits-wattstation-co
> uld-damage-nissan-leafs/ [image] GE Admits WattStation Could Damage
> Nissan Leafs Jul 19 2012
>
> General Electric's WattStation electric vehicle charging unit is
> damaging the on-board chargers of some Nissan Leafs, GE has admitted.
>
> GE Energy issued a statement saying that the company is "actively
> working with Nissan to help determine the source of this issue," a New

> York Times blog reports.
>
> The problem has so far affected 11 Leafs. One San Francisco-area
> dealership emailed customers last week warning them that using the
> WattStation may make it impossible to recharge the car, reports PlugIn

> cars. The email, sent by Hanlee Hilltop Nissan of San Pablo, Calif.,
> said that Nissan had documented multiple occurrences of Leafs losing
> their ability to charge after using the WattStation.
>
> But Nissan North America told the Times that it has no official policy

> instructing customers not to use the charger.
>
> According to AutoblogGreen, the problem is probably related to a diode

> on the car's on-board recharging system. The problem should not affect

> other models of electric vehicle, AutoblogGreen reports.
>
> The WattStation was unveiled in 2011 at the Plug-In 2011 Conference
> and Exposition. The charging unit was initially available at just five

> Lowes home improvement stores in California before being made
> available at 60 stores across the US and on Lowes.com. In November
> 2011, GE finalized a sale and distribution agreement with EV
> manufacturer CODA Automotive, which gives buyers a chance to bundle
> the WattStation with their car purchase. The following month
> Amazon.com announced it had started selling the unit ...
> [(c) 2012 Environmental Leader All rights reserved]
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EValert-G
> E-WattStation-Damages-Leaf-EVs-can-no-longer-charge-from-any-EVSE-tp46
> 56641.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

> archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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[quote] Cor van de Water <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Anybody having technical info about this issue?
>
> The only technical detail I could find was that it had to
> do with a diode in the EV, which leads me to suspect that
> it has to do with the +/-12V pilot signal and if the
> charging station does not fully implement the proper
> protocol (which some stations do not) and for example
> omit the -12V signal and send 0V instead, then the car might
> decide not to charge from that station....

My understanding of the situation - you are on the right track. There
is a diode on the pilot line of the car.

Normally, the car is supposed to pull the positive side of the pilot
signal down from +12V depending on what the car wants to do:

+9V = Connected
+6V = Charging
+3V = Ventilation Required

The EVSE should check that the negative voltage doesn't change - it
should stick at -12V. This keeps one from accidentally triggering
charge mode if they manage to get the right resistance on the pilot
signal by dropping the plug into a puddle, which might pull the pilot
down to +-6V, for example. Check only the positive signal and you'd
think a car was ready to charge but instead you electrocute the person
standing in the puddle.

These pages have some detail:
http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

So it appears that something the WattStation is doing is exceeding the
specs of the diode on the LEAF and causing it to blow.

Maybe the diode on the LEAF could be beefier - maybe something with
the WattStation design is allowing too much voltage to hit the pilot
signal. Or maybe a combination.

-Dave

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Hi David,
Since GE confirmed that they did something wrong,
there must be a fault or incorrect implementation
in the charging station that causes damage to the Leaf
as a result - even if it is that it does not allow the
vehicle to charge.
Throwing the connector in a puddle and having the
charging station accidentally connecting the 240V
may be dangerous, but does not damage the Leaf.

The only ways that I can see that a charging station
can damage an EV like the Leaf are:
1. It fails to deliver actual charge so the EV dies
(not likely to result in damage as the owner will
detect the absence of charge and charge elsewhere)
2. The charging station causes signals on the Pilot that
cause damage to the EV. Not likely as there are clear
standard mandatory values to implement the signals
and the 12V and resistance values only allow low current
not likely to blow any diodes or cause other damage.
3. The charging station causes spikes or other surges on
the 240V wiring that exceeds isolation or current ratings
of the EV charger and blows it up. This may be something
where a charger closes or opens a contactor in a way that
causes spikes or hard surge currents that cause the input
components on the charger (such as rectifier diodes) to
fail prematurely.

The latter seems to be the most likely problem with the
WattStation and adding some surge suppression or a filter
that allows better control of 240V voltage and current
will probably all that is needed to make it well-behaved.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of David Rees
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 1:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EValert: GE WattStation Damages Leaf EVs = can no
longer charge from any EVSE

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Cor van de Water <xxx@xxx.xxx>
[quote]wrote:
> Anybody having technical info about this issue?
>
> The only technical detail I could find was that it had to do with a
> diode in the EV, which leads me to suspect that it has to do with the
> +/-12V pilot signal and if the charging station does not fully
> implement the proper protocol (which some stations do not) and for
> example omit the -12V signal and send 0V instead, then the car might
> decide not to charge from that station....

My understanding of the situation - you are on the right track. There is
a diode on the pilot line of the car.

Normally, the car is supposed to pull the positive side of the pilot
signal down from +12V depending on what the car wants to do:

+9V = Connected
+6V = Charging
+3V = Ventilation Required

The EVSE should check that the negative voltage doesn't change - it
should stick at -12V. This keeps one from accidentally triggering charge
mode if they manage to get the right resistance on the pilot signal by
dropping the plug into a puddle, which might pull the pilot down to
+-6V, for example. Check only the positive signal and you'd think a car
was ready to charge but instead you electrocute the person standing in
the puddle.

These pages have some detail:
http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

So it appears that something the WattStation is doing is exceeding the
specs of the diode on the LEAF and causing it to blow.

Maybe the diode on the LEAF could be beefier - maybe something with the
WattStation design is allowing too much voltage to hit the pilot signal.
Or maybe a combination.

-Dave

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[EVDL List]

[quote]Cor van de Water wrote:

> Since GE confirmed that they did something wrong,

The new items I've seen state only that GE is investigating the claims.

Bruce P is quick to vilify the GE Wattstation, but in one of his own news items Nissan stated that only *some* of the Leaf failures had occurred at GE Wattstations. That suggests that some Leafs have been damaged while charging from non-GE EVSEs, and so there is more than a passing chance that the problem is not the EVSE but rather a marginal component choice or inadequate circuit protection in the Leaf charger.

> 2. The charging station causes signals on the Pilot that
> cause damage to the EV. Not likely as there are clear
> standard mandatory values to implement the signals
> and the 12V and resistance values only allow low current
> not likely to blow any diodes or cause other damage.

>From what I gather, the symptom is a failure of the vehicle side pilot signal loading circuit such that the EVSE will not enable AC power to the vehicle. It sounds as if the diode in the pilot signal circuit is failing, so it is possible that the Leaf charger did not use a sufficiently robust part. The J1772 standard cautions:

"The diode shown on the vehicle side is intended to be a common small signal silicon diode. Reverse voltage ratings
of at least 100V are readily available and are recommended since this diode is exposed directly to cable transients."

The EVSE pilot signal generator provides a +/-12V 1kHz square wave once it detects that a vehicle is connected. There is a 1K resistor in series with the signal generator, so the maximum current from the signal generator is limited to 12mA into a short, and the vehicle side load consists of a minimum of 880 ohms in series with the diode, so the maximum current is actually limited to about 6mA. It seems unlikely that the EVSE signal generator should be capable of damaging the diode.

However, J1772 also cautions:

"The cable capacitance from the Pilot wire to the Ground wire will probably be around 25 pF per foot, and many cables
are 15 to 20 feet long. If the EVSE's contactor closes when the line voltage is near a positive or negative peak, then
the voltage on the contactor output can rise from 0 to 170 V in just a few nanoseconds. This fast, high-voltage
transition can easily be coupled through the capacitance of the cable. In addition, with the contactor closed during
charging, any transients such as might be generated by nearby industrial equipment or lightning strikes can be
coupled through. It is highly recommended that transient protection be installed on both the EVSE output and the
vehicle input."

IIRC, GE has stated that their EVSE includes all of the recommended transient protection devices, however, it is not clear that the Leaf charger does. It is possible that the Leaf charger lacks adequate (or any) transient protection, and perhaps the GE EVSE has a higher than average cable capacitance or is otherwise either more prone to transients being coupled onto the pilot signal, or is prone to somewhat more severe transients such that the Leaf charger is somewhat more likely to be damaged while using this EVSE than others.

It is also possible that GE Wattstations happen to be particularly successful in the marketplace, and so the reason that there may have been more instances of Leafs failing while using GE EVSEs is simply that there happen to be a larger number of Leafs using GE EVSEs.

Cheers,

Roger.


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