[EVDL List]

On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For example, I
can get (estimated) 95 mile range when driving on the freeway at about
60mph. In the same weather conditions driving on city streets, hills, stop
& go, that range (estimated) drops to 60-65 miles (50 in winter). I think
the difference would be to regen losses and limits.

I don't know how to measure regen on the leaf. I will have the annual
inspection at the dealer in a week or so and will see what info I can get
from them.

Does anyone else have metrics for regen on the leaf? How efficient? How
does it determine when to switch over or add physical braking?

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of Danpatgal
Sent: 14 June, 2012 1:14 PM
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
Efficiency...Less Range!


Ken Fry wrote
>
> I'd expect the i-miev and leaf regen modes to be almost equally efficient.


I base my comment about the i regen being better based on my test driving
the Leaf and not being particularly impressed with the regen power in Eco
mode, and there is no B mode. On the i, however, the need for braking is
minimal when using the B mode. Now, I guess the Leaf has the potential to
increase the regen when the brake pedal is pressed, that might give the Leaf
the ability to regen as much power as the i. But, requires more work and
sensitivity on the brake pedal that I think is harder to do than simply
modulating the accelerator.

But, then I'd still say because of the lower weight and lower power
consumption and at least as good regen, the i may close the range gap on the
Leaf in hilly urban settings. Now, it could be (say at very fast highway
speeds), the Leaf extends the range gap on the i.

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-R
eports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655666.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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[EVDL List]

I haven't driven a Leaf yet, but when I drove the iMiev, I found the regen
to be very nice... in the B mode, you could almost dispense with using the
brake pedal at all when driving around the city, as long as you left a
little room between you and the next car. To the point that I wondered
whether it should have brake lights tied to the regen instead of the brake
pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I'm used to driving manual transmission vehicles with good engine braking,
so the idea of modulating the accelerator to do braking as well is pretty
easy for me. If you are used to an automatic, which coasts more if you let
off on the accelerator, I can see how the iMiev system would be a little
counterintuitive.

Z

[quote] Peri Hartman <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For example,
> I
> can get (estimated) 95 mile range when driving on the freeway at about
> 60mph. In the same weather conditions driving on city streets, hills, stop
> & go, that range (estimated) drops to 60-65 miles (50 in winter). I think
> the difference would be to regen losses and limits.
>
> I don't know how to measure regen on the leaf. I will have the annual
> inspection at the dealer in a week or so and will see what info I can get
> from them.
>
> Does anyone else have metrics for regen on the leaf? How efficient? How
> does it determine when to switch over or add physical braking?
>
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf
> Of Danpatgal
> Sent: 14 June, 2012 1:14 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
> Efficiency...Less Range!
>
>
> Ken Fry wrote
> >
> > I'd expect the i-miev and leaf regen modes to be almost equally
> efficient.
>
>
> I base my comment about the i regen being better based on my test driving
> the Leaf and not being particularly impressed with the regen power in Eco
> mode, and there is no B mode. On the i, however, the need for braking is
> minimal when using the B mode. Now, I guess the Leaf has the potential to
> increase the regen when the brake pedal is pressed, that might give the
> Leaf
> the ability to regen as much power as the i. But, requires more work and
> sensitivity on the brake pedal that I think is harder to do than simply
> modulating the accelerator.
>
> But, then I'd still say because of the lower weight and lower power
> consumption and at least as good regen, the i may close the range gap on
> the
> Leaf in hilly urban settings. Now, it could be (say at very fast highway
> speeds), the Leaf extends the range gap on the i.
>
> -----
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-R
> eports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655666.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
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>
>
>
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[EVDL List]

I don't remember exactly how much regen current the Leaf
gives on release of the accelerator, but it felt much the
same as the "engine braking simulation" in my 1st gen Prius.
Upon lightly applying the brake pedal, regen current soared
to a max 80ADC into the pack which was only slightly more
than the 50-60A max that the Prius can send into or draw
from its tiny 6.5Ah 273V NiMH pack.
I have driven vehicles that can accelerate as well as
decelerate with the same power - actually the current limit
was the same controller limit but the deceleration power
was higher due to the higher charge voltage on the pack
as well as the inefficiencies being part of the deceleration
while acceleration was after the inefficiencies.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV;Great
Efficiency...Less Range!

I haven't driven a Leaf yet, but when I drove the iMiev, I found the
regen to be very nice... in the B mode, you could almost dispense with
using the brake pedal at all when driving around the city, as long as
you left a little room between you and the next car. To the point that
I wondered whether it should have brake lights tied to the regen instead
of the brake pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I'm used to driving manual transmission vehicles with good engine
braking, so the idea of modulating the accelerator to do braking as well
is pretty easy for me. If you are used to an automatic, which coasts
more if you let off on the accelerator, I can see how the iMiev system
would be a little counterintuitive.

Z

[quote] Peri Hartman <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For
> example, I can get (estimated) 95 mile range when driving on the
> freeway at about 60mph. In the same weather conditions driving on
> city streets, hills, stop
> & go, that range (estimated) drops to 60-65 miles (50 in winter). I
think
> the difference would be to regen losses and limits.
>
> I don't know how to measure regen on the leaf. I will have the annual

> inspection at the dealer in a week or so and will see what info I can
> get from them.
>
> Does anyone else have metrics for regen on the leaf? How efficient?
> How does it determine when to switch over or add physical braking?
>
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Danpatgal
> Sent: 14 June, 2012 1:14 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
> Efficiency...Less Range!
>
>
> Ken Fry wrote
> >
> > I'd expect the i-miev and leaf regen modes to be almost equally
> efficient.
>
>
> I base my comment about the i regen being better based on my test
> driving the Leaf and not being particularly impressed with the regen
> power in Eco mode, and there is no B mode. On the i, however, the
> need for braking is minimal when using the B mode. Now, I guess the
> Leaf has the potential to increase the regen when the brake pedal is
> pressed, that might give the Leaf the ability to regen as much power
> as the i. But, requires more work and sensitivity on the brake pedal
> that I think is harder to do than simply modulating the accelerator.
>
> But, then I'd still say because of the lower weight and lower power
> consumption and at least as good regen, the i may close the range gap
> on the Leaf in hilly urban settings. Now, it could be (say at very
> fast highway speeds), the Leaf extends the range gap on the i.
>
> -----
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Cons
> umer-R
> eports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655666.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at

> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[EVDL List]

Zeke Yewdall wrote
>
> To the point that I wondered whether it should have brake lights tied to
> the regen instead of the brake
> pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I am now quite fond of the B mode in our i and feel the same way, I think a
guy following me the other day did at least curse as he was coming a little
too close to me as I engaged regen. Regen really should activate the brake
lights above some threshold.

Anybody heard of an EV being rear-ended as it was slowing during regen
(without brake lights)? Do any new OEM EVs have brake lights tied to regen,
Tesla maybe ??

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-Reports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655686.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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[EVDL List]

I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake
lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not
just when it is using regen. I haven't confirmed it, however. I would
have assumed that all OEMs would have tied the brake light to regen.

On my Gizmo I tied the brake lights to regen at any level since I can
slow to about 2mph with regen.

[quote] Danpatgal <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote
>>
>> To the point that I wondered whether it should have brake lights tied to
>> the regen instead of the brake
>> pedal to avoid getting rear ended.
>
> I am now quite fond of the B mode in our i and feel the same way, I think=
a
> guy following me the other day did at least curse as he was coming a litt=
le
> too close to me as I engaged regen. Regen really should activate the b=
rake
> lights above some threshold.
>
> Anybody heard of an EV being rear-ended as it was slowing during regen
> (without brake lights)? Do any new OEM EVs have brake lights tied to r=
egen,
> Tesla maybe ??
>
> -----
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-Reports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Ran=
ge-tp4655638p4655686.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
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-- =

David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

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[EVDL List]

[quote] Peri Hartman <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For examp=
le, I
> can get (estimated) 95 mile range when driving on the freeway at about
> 60mph. In the same weather conditions driving on city streets, hills, =
stop
> & go, that range (estimated) drops to 60-65 miles (50 in winter). I t=
hink
> the difference would be to regen losses and limits.

It's easy to measure relative efficiency in the LEAF. Just reset the
dash or heat-unit mi/kWh gauge after each charge or before each
segment you want to measure.

In my experience, 95 mile range at 60 mph on the LEAF is a bit
generous. It's more like 80-85. To get 95 miles you'll have to drop
to 50-55 mph. I nearly always get better efficiency in the city
thanks to lower average speeds, but it can be quite variable. Key is
to avoid sudden stops which turn energy into heat in the brakes by
anticipating stops. This keeps your actual speed closer to average
speed which also has the benefit of improving efficiency since you'll
tend to spend more time moving at lower speeds rather than driving
fast and then stopping and waiting.

> I don't know how to measure regen on the leaf. I will have the annual
> inspection at the dealer in a week or so and will see what info I can get
> from them.

The bubble graph on the dash gives you a rough approximation of how
much regen you are using, the energy info screen on the center console
gives you a 0-30 kW gauge. It's too bad the gauge maxes out at 30 kW
because the LEAF will do regen up to 40-45 kW in the right conditions.

> Does anyone else have metrics for regen on the leaf? How efficient? How
> does it determine when to switch over or add physical braking?

Best estimate is that regen gets about 85% of the energy captured by
the motor back into the battery. Then you get about 90% of that
energy back to the wheels for a round trip of somewhere around 75%
efficiency.

It's very difficult to tell when friction brakes start getting added
in when using the brake pedal. Sudden application of the brakes or
rough roads which trigger ABS will cause regen to drop out in favor of
friction brakes which can be verified by watching the energy info
screen.

-Dave

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[EVDL List]

I believe Tesla (model S anyway) engages regen when you let of the go pedal, so to some extent slowing done and regen are the same process.

Don't know if you can get it to glide like a Prius.

John

[quote] David Nelson <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake
> lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not
> just when it is using regen. I haven't confirmed it, however. I would
> have assumed that all OEMs would have tied the brake light to regen.
>
> On my Gizmo I tied the brake lights to regen at any level since I can
> slow to about 2mph with regen.

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[EVDL List]

The Prius will default also simulate regen braking,
however you can move the gear selector to [N] which
will tell the controller not to send any torque
via either of the two motors, essentially giving you
full glide and depending on whether the engine was
already started or not, you can overrev one of the motors
by switching to Neutral at the top of a hill while in
full EV mode and picking up enough speed on the way down
with the controller prevented from starting the engine
(which requires an action from the motors).

Prius has a mild regen on accelerator release, it increases
the regen when selecting the [B] to give higher engine
braking such as which you can use while descending a long
steep slope where you do not want to ride your brakes.
Also applying the brakes will first increase regen before
friction brakes are applied.
Regen will be disabled once the battery reaches a certain
max charging state.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of JOHN OCONNOR
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 11:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
Efficiency...Less Range!

I believe Tesla (model S anyway) engages regen when you let of the go
pedal, so to some extent slowing done and regen are the same process.

Don't know if you can get it to glide like a Prius.

John

[quote] David Nelson <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake
> lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not
> just when it is using regen. I haven't confirmed it, however. I would
> have assumed that all OEMs would have tied the brake light to regen.
>
> On my Gizmo I tied the brake lights to regen at any level since I can
> slow to about 2mph with regen.

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[EVDL List]

As a very happy owner of an iMiEV (complementing my two Sparrows, an
EV-converted small pickup, a 1965 Saab EV conversion, and an electric
EcoScoot which is presently my LiFePO4 testbed), I just posted a rebuttal of
the Consumer Reports writeup on their website.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/06/with-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-range-anxiety-is-included.html

I measured both the power and regeneration battery currents of the iMiEV and
posted the numbers here:

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=288

What I measured was slightly over 150A at max power and slightly over 100A
at max regen from the 330v (nominal) battery pack. Having three levels of
regen is a very nice iMiEV feature, and to me a significant advantage over
the Leaf. On long downgrades, I have actually had the 'fuel' level gauge go
up in addition to having the Range Remaining display increase significantly.

What is unclear to me is how Regeneration is treated when the EPA conducts
its mileage tests, as IMO that can make a VERY significant difference!

Although I consider the Leaf an excellent EV and have talked two friends
into buying Leafs, for my wife and myself it is a little too large and
unnecessarily opulent.

The iMiEV is now our primary vehicle which is absolutely adored by my wife
(I still drive the Sparrow), with our Gen1 Honda Insights continuing to be
relegated for use on long trips.

-----
Joe Siudzinski
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-Reports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655796.html
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