[EVDL List]

[quote]M. Barkley wrote:
> There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only
> hearing one side of the story.
Mike, we've been begging on this list to get some other side of the
story. I've emailed Ken to ask for some backup, some success stories,
but he refuses to give any. I told him there was some skeptical talk (I
was generous with that description) on EVDL that he should clear up. He
didn't. Last year, LionEV was advertising for the 1,000 pre-orders for
converted Accents, then they reported "no more pre-orders." Well, there
aren't 1,000 converted lithium-based Accents on the road, so what
happened? (One of the 1,000 drivers would have to know about EVDL, or
the Internet, right?) Hell, people post with pride about their Prius on
the Internet, and that's a car you can just walk down to a dealer and buy!

Maybe it will take something like Willie's claims to dig Ken out of his
hole to respond. My money's on he'll keep doing what he's doing, and
Willie's warning will serve the community and prevent others from
getting defrauded in the mean time. Maybe if LionEV's potential
customers say, "hey, I'd like to deal with you, but there's some stuff
people are saying about you we need to clear up first," it would be a
step in the right direction.

This community exposed Thunder Sky, and I'm grateful for it. Although I
might buy something from them in the future, if I did so I know I'd have
to factor in a certain rejection rate of cells and the cost of pain and
suffering if I ever wanted to do so, and that's good information, and
that would factor in to the price I'm willing to pay. Same with LionEV,
except in their case I'd have to see that they delivered a product to
more than one person, and probably use some escrow service or something.
As of right now, I say no way to both.

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You bet, I'll certainly let everyone know how my
experiences go, as I've said they are great to work
with, and the Texas Rep, I'm sure would have done his
best to sort out the mess. I hope for the best for
both parties in the experience posted with the Hyundai
Accent.

I've eaten crow before, and I'm sure some here have as
well..... lol

Either way, we should always have something to wash it
down with.

Now, lets get back to building and experimenting with
EV's.




[quote]--- damon henry <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>
> Just be sure you continue to share your experiences
> with us even if/when they turn sour. It would be a
> real disservice to us all if you continue to defend
> them up until the day they turn on you and then you
> go quiet. If you continue to get what you pay for
> then good for you but if not please let us know.
>
> damon
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:40:07 -0800
> > From: xxx@xxx.xxx
> > To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV
> >
> > There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only
> > hearing one side of the story. So far the dealings
> > I've had with LionEV, and the Texas Dealer has all
> > been good. The Texas rep was even at our local
> > Electric Auto Association last Saturday.
> >
>
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Here's my side:
In late October I began trying to get a test drive of the Accent or Tuscon conversions. First I was told that could be arranged. I suggested that I would drive to Virginia with my wife so we could decide if we wanted to buy one of the conversions. It was then suggested that it would soon be possible to test drive one in Huntsville, LA which was closer. I checked and there was less than 100miles difference. I suggested that I would rather come to Virginia and would really like a quick tour of their facilities. Next it was suggested that there would be a location in the Chicago area where we would be able to test the drive a car. This seemed to progress as expected except I never was given a name, an address, or a phone number where I could make the arrangements. When the date I that I asked to schedule the test drive approached, I was told that the vehicle had arrived but they were getting the batteries. I gave them my phone number, email address and home address and!
asked to be notified when the car would be ready with the phone number to call to make the appointment. This was near the end of November. I waited a couple of weeks without any communications. I emailed again but received no reply. About mid December I checked the LionEV website and discovered that they were closed for the Holidays. The Huntsville location was no longer listed. However, there was an email address for an Illinois Representative. I waited until January to email this representative. I have actually sent three emails since January one and have not received a reply. I willnot email them again.

I will not blindly make a $1000 nonrefundable deposit with out test driving a car.

Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders

> > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:40:07 -0800> > From: xxx@xxx.xxx> > To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV> >> > There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only> > hearing one side of the story. d
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I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
perons name to be changed to CUSTOMER, by the way. I
also edited out some other specific data.

LionEV maybe indeed be the bad guy, but if the below
is true, I'd hate for everyone to keep the bad
impression I'm reading that they have.

Read on.

Scott


===



Our process requires half up front once we locate your
car, and provide
you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
for conversion.
Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
a certificate of
origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles. When
the conversion is
completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
or bank,
depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
financed vehicle.
This
customer appears to have decided to write his own
rules.

First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
a
conversion. The details follow.

The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
blue accent
conversion. We had one in fleet inventory so we
provided him with the
VIN <VIN>. Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
which
was received on August 14th. This was the 1/2 down to
secure the
vehicle.

On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
Mr. CUSTOMER chose
to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion". He
did not complete
the transaction. Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
we title the
vehicle "as is" in his name.

Without a conversion having taken place, we could not
issue a new
title.
The only two options were sign over a title, or try
to create a
replacement title for Mr. CUSTOMER. Since Mr.
CUSTOMER wanted to
re-title
it in Texas, the SC title was signed over to him as
the new owner. SC
title number XXX . Owner registrant LionEV, buyer
CUSTOMER.

Mr. CUSTOMER assuming that the Texas Department of
Motor Vehicles, like
all other states, was staffed by kind and reasonable
people, presented
the title for replacement. The Texas DMV told him he
would have to pay
taxes on the vehicle. They suspected that he was
trying to evade sales
tax on the vehicle. He of course did not pay the tax,
so he left
without a title.

CUSTOMER then contacted us and asked for help in doing
things his way
with the Texas DMV. He requested and received many
forms.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a SCDMV form for title
transfer.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a Request for title
transfer directed at
the Texas DMV on his behalf.

On November 21, 2007 we provided a bill of sale
affidavit.

On November 26, 2007 we sent a satisfaction of lien.

On November 27, 2007 we produced proof of tax payment
forms.

During the month of December numerous emails were sent
back and forth
providing what documents were requested, but no
forward movement was
made.

January 11, 2008 and the situation with the Texas DMV
still had not
been
resolved, and it did not look like it ever would be.
A meeting was
held
at LionEV to determine what course of action would be
appropriate to
help the customer. It was decided that the best way
to put it to rest
would be to offer a fully converted vehicle to replace
the Accent since
we could then use our certificate of origin to issue a
new title. You
can't win with the DMV by trying to play by your own
rules. Our
current
vehicles are Ranger trucks, Escape EV's, and Escape
PHEV's. Our Texas
dealer had requested an Escape PHEV to demo so even
though this would
cost LionEV $13,000 it was decided to offer to replace
the Accent with
an Escape PHEV at no additional cost. This would put
one of the PHEV's
in Texas. The customer declined and said that he
didn't want an ICE.

The management of LionEV is currently meeting to
discuss a delivery
date
for a Ranger for CUSTOMER. There are two scheduled to
ship in to
Texas this week, so they are trying to see what they
can do to get his
on that same truck. Once those details are known he
will be contacted
with that offer.

This is not a case of lack of attention, this is a
case of the State of
Texas thinking a citizen is trying to defraud them of
tax revenues.
Since no conversion took place this raised red flags.
Had the
conversion been done there would have been no
questions.

Please publish the details of this transaction where
appropriate. I am
sure that the customer's name was probably published
on the EV board
you
mention, but my office has asked that you replace
CUSTOMER's name
with the word "customer". LionEV is very protective
of their
customer's
privacy, even when there is a rare issue.

xxx@xxx.xxx









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What a load of BS. You know and we know they are stalling and keeping
the money. What a sucker if you buy that load of .............
[quote] S Collins wrote:

> I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
> it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
> EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
> perons name to be changed to CUSTOMER, by the way. I
> also edited out some other specific data.
>
> LionEV maybe indeed be the bad guy, but if the below
> is true, I'd hate for everyone to keep the bad
> impression I'm reading that they have.
>
> Read on.
>
> Scott
>
>
> ===
>
>
>
> Our process requires half up front once we locate your
> car, and provide
> you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
> for conversion.
> Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
> a certificate of
> origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles. When
> the conversion is
> completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
> or bank,
> depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
> financed vehicle.
> This
> customer appears to have decided to write his own
> rules.
>
> First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
> a
> conversion. The details follow.
>
> The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
> blue accent
> conversion. We had one in fleet inventory so we
> provided him with the
> VIN <VIN>. Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
> which
> was received on August 14th. This was the 1/2 down to
> secure the
> vehicle.
>
> On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
> Mr. CUSTOMER chose
> to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion". He
> did not complete
> the transaction. Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
> we title the
> vehicle "as is" in his name.
>
> Without a conversion having taken place, we could not
> issue a new
> title.
> The only two options were sign over a title, or try
> to create a
> replacement title for Mr. CUSTOMER. Since Mr.
> CUSTOMER wanted to
> re-title
> it in Texas, the SC title was signed over to him as
> the new owner. SC
> title number XXX . Owner registrant LionEV, buyer
> CUSTOMER.
>
> Mr. CUSTOMER assuming that the Texas Department of
> Motor Vehicles, like
> all other states, was staffed by kind and reasonable
> people, presented
> the title for replacement. The Texas DMV told him he
> would have to pay
> taxes on the vehicle. They suspected that he was
> trying to evade sales
> tax on the vehicle. He of course did not pay the tax,
> so he left
> without a title.
>
> CUSTOMER then contacted us and asked for help in doing
> things his way
> with the Texas DMV. He requested and received many
> forms.
>
> On September 12, 2007 we sent a SCDMV form for title
> transfer.
>
> On September 12, 2007 we sent a Request for title
> transfer directed at
> the Texas DMV on his behalf.
>
> On November 21, 2007 we provided a bill of sale
> affidavit.
>
> On November 26, 2007 we sent a satisfaction of lien.
>
> On November 27, 2007 we produced proof of tax payment
> forms.
>
> During the month of December numerous emails were sent
> back and forth
> providing what documents were requested, but no
> forward movement was
> made.
>
> January 11, 2008 and the situation with the Texas DMV
> still had not
> been
> resolved, and it did not look like it ever would be.
> A meeting was
> held
> at LionEV to determine what course of action would be
> appropriate to
> help the customer. It was decided that the best way
> to put it to rest
> would be to offer a fully converted vehicle to replace
> the Accent since
> we could then use our certificate of origin to issue a
> new title. You
> can't win with the DMV by trying to play by your own
> rules. Our
> current
> vehicles are Ranger trucks, Escape EV's, and Escape
> PHEV's. Our Texas
> dealer had requested an Escape PHEV to demo so even
> though this would
> cost LionEV $13,000 it was decided to offer to replace
> the Accent with
> an Escape PHEV at no additional cost. This would put
> one of the PHEV's
> in Texas. The customer declined and said that he
> didn't want an ICE.
>
> The management of LionEV is currently meeting to
> discuss a delivery
> date
> for a Ranger for CUSTOMER. There are two scheduled to
> ship in to
> Texas this week, so they are trying to see what they
> can do to get his
> on that same truck. Once those details are known he
> will be contacted
> with that offer.
>
> This is not a case of lack of attention, this is a
> case of the State of
> Texas thinking a citizen is trying to defraud them of
> tax revenues.
> Since no conversion took place this raised red flags.
> Had the
> conversion been done there would have been no
> questions.
>
> Please publish the details of this transaction where
> appropriate. I am
> sure that the customer's name was probably published
> on the EV board
> you
> mention, but my office has asked that you replace
> CUSTOMER's name
> with the word "customer". LionEV is very protective
> of their
> customer's
> privacy, even when there is a rare issue.
>
> xxx@xxx.xxx
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________ ____________________
> ______________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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[EVDL List]

Interesting... whenever I have imported vehicles that I bought out of
state to Colorado, I have had to pay sales tax... it's pretty
standard. It's also common for people to try to buy vehicles in
nearby states with lower sales tax, instead of their home state, to
avoid the sales tax..... and the DMV's are specifically looking out to
prevent this. And... the DMV writes the rules... I have NEVER had any
success trying to not play by their rules. You fill out the forms
they say too... or you don't get your title... fact of life...

Z



[quote] S Collins <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
> it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
> EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
> perons name to be changed to CUSTOMER, by the way. I
> also edited out some other specific data.
>
> LionEV maybe indeed be the bad guy, but if the below
> is true, I'd hate for everyone to keep the bad
> impression I'm reading that they have.
>
> Read on.
>
> Scott
>
>
> ===
>
>
>
> Our process requires half up front once we locate your
> car, and provide
> you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
> for conversion.
> Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
> a certificate of
> origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles. When
> the conversion is
> completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
> or bank,
> depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
> financed vehicle.
> This
> customer appears to have decided to write his own
> rules.
>
> First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
> a
> conversion. The details follow.
>
> The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
> blue accent
> conversion. We had one in fleet inventory so we
> provided him with the
> VIN <VIN>. Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
> which
> was received on August 14th. This was the 1/2 down to
> secure the
> vehicle.
>
> On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
> Mr. CUSTOMER chose
> to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion". He
> did not complete
> the transaction. Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
> we title the
> vehicle "as is" in his name.
>
> Without a conversion having taken place, we could not
> issue a new
> title.
> The only two options were sign over a title, or try
> to create a
> replacement title for Mr. CUSTOMER. Since Mr.
> CUSTOMER wanted to
> re-title
> it in Texas, the SC title was signed over to him as
> the new owner. SC
> title number XXX . Owner registrant LionEV, buyer
> CUSTOMER.
>
> Mr. CUSTOMER assuming that the Texas Department of
> Motor Vehicles, like
> all other states, was staffed by kind and reasonable
> people, presented
> the title for replacement. The Texas DMV told him he
> would have to pay
> taxes on the vehicle. They suspected that he was
> trying to evade sales
> tax on the vehicle. He of course did not pay the tax,
> so he left
> without a title.
>
> CUSTOMER then contacted us and asked for help in doing
> things his way
> with the Texas DMV. He requested and received many
> forms.
>
> On September 12, 2007 we sent a SCDMV form for title
> transfer.
>
> On September 12, 2007 we sent a Request for title
> transfer directed at
> the Texas DMV on his behalf.
>
> On November 21, 2007 we provided a bill of sale
> affidavit.
>
> On November 26, 2007 we sent a satisfaction of lien.
>
> On November 27, 2007 we produced proof of tax payment
> forms.
>
> During the month of December numerous emails were sent
> back and forth
> providing what documents were requested, but no
> forward movement was
> made.
>
> January 11, 2008 and the situation with the Texas DMV
> still had not
> been
> resolved, and it did not look like it ever would be.
> A meeting was
> held
> at LionEV to determine what course of action would be
> appropriate to
> help the customer. It was decided that the best way
> to put it to rest
> would be to offer a fully converted vehicle to replace
> the Accent since
> we could then use our certificate of origin to issue a
> new title. You
> can't win with the DMV by trying to play by your own
> rules. Our
> current
> vehicles are Ranger trucks, Escape EV's, and Escape
> PHEV's. Our Texas
> dealer had requested an Escape PHEV to demo so even
> though this would
> cost LionEV $13,000 it was decided to offer to replace
> the Accent with
> an Escape PHEV at no additional cost. This would put
> one of the PHEV's
> in Texas. The customer declined and said that he
> didn't want an ICE.
>
> The management of LionEV is currently meeting to
> discuss a delivery
> date
> for a Ranger for CUSTOMER. There are two scheduled to
> ship in to
> Texas this week, so they are trying to see what they
> can do to get his
> on that same truck. Once those details are known he
> will be contacted
> with that offer.
>
> This is not a case of lack of attention, this is a
> case of the State of
> Texas thinking a citizen is trying to defraud them of
> tax revenues.
> Since no conversion took place this raised red flags.
> Had the
> conversion been done there would have been no
> questions.
>
> Please publish the details of this transaction where
> appropriate. I am
> sure that the customer's name was probably published
> on the EV board
> you
> mention, but my office has asked that you replace
> CUSTOMER's name
> with the word "customer". LionEV is very protective
> of their
> customer's
> privacy, even when there is a rare issue.
>
> xxx@xxx.xxx
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________ __________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[quote] Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Interesting... whenever I have imported vehicles that I bought out of
> state to Colorado, I have had to pay sales tax... it's pretty
> standard. It's also common for people to try to buy vehicles in
> nearby states with lower sales tax, instead of their home state, to
> avoid the sales tax..... and the DMV's are specifically looking out to
> prevent this. And... the DMV writes the rules... I have NEVER had any
> success trying to not play by their rules. You fill out the forms
> they say too... or you don't get your title... fact of life...

I will be generous and assume that you are not accusing me of being a
tax evader. In my synopsis, I failed to mentioned that I objected to
paying Texas sales tax AGAIN and on an amount greater than the value of
the car.

I will be posting some more information on the situation later this
evening. Anyway, that is my plan. Hear it first here.

I'll hit a few points below.

> > Our process requires half up front once we locate your
> > car, and provide
> > you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
> > for conversion.
> > Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
> > a certificate of
> > origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles. When
> > the conversion is
> > completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
> > or bank,
> > depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
> > financed vehicle.
> > This
> > customer appears to have decided to write his own
> > rules.

I followed instructions from LionEV. They offered to supply a title IN
MY NAME after payment for 1/2 of the price of the converted car. AFTER
I received title, THEN I was to make the second payment and the
conversion was to commence. So far, LionEV has failed to supply the
title IN MY NAME and the conversion is "on hold".
> >
> > First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
> > a
> > conversion. The details follow.
> >
> > The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
> > blue accent
> > conversion. We had one in fleet inventory so we
> > provided him with the
> > VIN <VIN>. Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
> > which
> > was received on August 14th. This was the 1/2 down to
> > secure the
> > vehicle.
> >
> > On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
> > Mr. CUSTOMER chose
> > to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion". He
> > did not complete
> > the transaction. Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
> > we title the
> > vehicle "as is" in his name.

Not so, see above. LionEV is perhaps forgetful. I will post
documents.


--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 32 days 12 hours 38 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Few people would be so accomodating. Why don't you just take him to court already?

----- Original Message ----
Not so, see above. LionEV is perhaps forgetful. I will post
documents.



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[EVDL List]

For those interested, I have just added to:
http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt

I am not interested in hearing your criticism. I am interested in
hearing specific suggestions for low cost (time and $) remedies.
Yes, I made a very serious mistake in dealing with LionEV; I accept
responsibility for that mistake. I post the above for your
information. If you remain confused about the facts of the
situation, please say so and I will attempt to clarify.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 33 days 5 hours 38 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Willie McKemie skrev:
> For those interested, I have just added to:
> http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.tx

I take it you don't have possession of the car either?
could you get it? maybe sell it back to the dealer at whatever the loss
would be. if it cost 13k$ and hasn't run I doubt it has dropped to 6k$

get rid of the car as damage control and move on. if they really are con
artists which it would appear they are in some fashion or other you
should probably drop any ideas of the conversion being completed by
them. minimize and cut losses.
get firm and get on the phone with them and see how you can round this
case off.

and please, everyone on the list and everyone you know, learn from this
and don't shell out big money to people without any track record. even
if they doop someone like ampmobile to join them which they apparently did.
even companies with prior work, check their attitude in previous work.

Dan

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