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  #1  
Old 10-16-2011, 04:57 PM
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Default [EVDL] Lithium Ion Battery Upgrade Cost for Solectria Force

I am buying a 1997 Solectria Force that needs batteries. I keep hearing that
lithium batteries are a good long term investment but capital intensive up
front. How much would it cost to convert to lithium and extend effective
range to 60 miles? What would be a good configuration, lots of 40ah or
fewer 60ah or...?
(I am hoping to move to a 144v system if it is practical in order to
facilitate a better relationship with PV grid tie solar system at 48v)

Larry

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  #2  
Old 10-16-2011, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Lithium Ion Battery Upgrade Cost for Solectria Force

[quote] Larry Fisher wrote:
> I am buying a 1997 Solectria Force that needs batteries. I keep hearing that
> lithium batteries are a good long term investment but capital intensive up
> front. How much would it cost to convert to lithium and extend effective
> range to 60 miles? What would be a good configuration, lots of 40ah or
> fewer 60ah or...?
> (I am hoping to move to a 144v system if it is practical in order to
> facilitate a better relationship with PV grid tie solar system at 48v)

For 144v, I would say that 100ah is the smallest cell you should
consider. The cheap cells (TS, CALB, etc) should not be depended on to
supply more than about 2C for any length of time. That means 200 amps
for 100ah cells. Keep in mind that they will run less than 1/2 hour
for 2C continuous discharge. 40ah, 60ah are just too small. Several
people are using 100ah but I think many of them think 100ah is too
small. I think you should consider 160ah, 200ah or even 260ah. Of
course you can parallel 2 or more 20ah, 40ah, 60ah cells to get more
capacity; that may be appropriate where you need to stuff them in
restricted spaces.

Also, consider that large cells with relative modest discharge rates
are supposed to lead to better longevity.

I am approaching 30K miles on a 260ah pack. Will post some detail in a
month or so when I reach 30K miles. I figure I've already gotten 2 or
3 lead packs out of it and have FAR greater range than I could hope
to get with lead. My pack will run about 3 hours at around 50mph at
about 1/4C. ROUGH averages. I rarely pull more than 400 amps.

http://evalbum.com/2314

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 17 days 1 hours 47 minutes

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  #3  
Old 10-16-2011, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Lithium Ion Battery Upgrade Cost for Solectria Force

If you know the Wh/mi numbers it would help in calculating what size
of LiFePO4 pack you would need. Also, the charging of LiFePO4 cells is
different than lead acid which may make a connection to a PV system in
48V increments not advisable. ANY imbalance in load on the pack is not
desirable.

As Willie said, don't go too small when sizing your pack. I now have
10,000 miles on a pack of 100Ah cells put in buddy pairs for a 200Ah
pack and it is working just fine.

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

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  #4  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Lithium Ion Battery Upgrade Cost for Solectria Force

60 miles at what speed? My small car (http://www.evalbum.com/3060) should be
similar to the Solectria for rolling and drag forces and has about 65 mile
range at 60 mph on level terrain at 80% DoD, with a 180Ah, nominal 115V,
20.76kWh LiFePO4 pack. Discharge current at 60 mph is about 130A = 0.72C. I
wouldn't go below 160Ah cells for that range with a 144V pack, and regularly
driving at 60 mph. If you run the cells at > 1C much of the time, you will
may decrease their life (their spec'ed number of cycles is at 0.3C).


[quote]Larry Fisher wrote:
>
> I am buying a 1997 Solectria Force that needs batteries. I keep hearing
> that lithium batteries are a good long term investment but capital
> intensive up front. How much would it cost to convert to lithium and
> extend effective range to 60 miles? What would be a good configuration,
> lots of 40ah or fewer 60ah or...?
> (I am hoping to move to a 144v system if it is practical in order to
> facilitate a better relationship with PV grid tie solar system at 48v)
>
> Larry
>


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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-Ion-Battery-Upgrade-Cost-for-Solectria-Force-tp3910594p3912090.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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  #5  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Lithium Ion Battery Upgrade Cost for Solectria Force

Larry, you didnt see my reply on the force forums in yahoo because, well im
not sure why 1/2 my posts just dont post but ill paste in here what i
replied.

As a side not forces arent the same animals as the warp 9 dc's we mostly
have here. The controllers are set up switchable at either 50,100 or 200
battery amps max based on the position of a switch. Therefore 60 AH cells
are fine really as long as one stays in normal (100 amps) or lower. Your
original question had you (on the force forums) going 26 miles one way (52)
round trip.What I posted was a response to that range (52) miles which is
extreme for 60 ah 52 cells but still doable. That will not do you for 60
miles however unless you can charge at the destination. So anyplace I put 52
60ah cells you will now need 52 100ah cells. I always drive in normal or
econ. I never ran into a need for the power setting.
50 battery amps will hold 55mph on the flat no real headwind. Normal maxes
out the limiter at 70mph.

copy and paste below







----- Forwarded Message -----
From: kevin lubot <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "xxx@xxx.xxx" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Solar Compatible Battery Banks


Larry, I want charge PV when possible. But rather than breaking up my pack
i am going to use an inverter and cheap chinese 110 156V charger.

PV-->12 60ah lifepo's (4s3p) --->cheap harbor freight inverter -->charger
---> car

This leaves me free to use the inverter for house power as well as charge
the car.

No modifications are needed to the car except an offboard 110 charger. Its
just simpler and theres no contactors or switches on the pack.


I have 2 forces one lifepo4 (52 100ah cells) and one still lead acid.

I have a feeling im going to take out the Lead charge that with the PV and
put in 52 60AH cells (already have 12 so i only need to buy 40.)

Nothing really wrong with the lead other than it should be stationary and
charged by the pv and the light high cycle cells should be in the car.

52 60ah cells would be about $4500 including shippign and a minibms (if you
are so inclined.) So about 2 times the cost of new lead.

Charger should work depending on what you have or snag a cheapy from
evassemble.

Heres what i get

the green one (lifepo) is REMARKABLY efficient with lifepo.

My round trip to work and back (charge at work every day not at home) is 54
miles. I run about 48-50 amps no heat with 2 passangers. Winter time i run
66-70 amps round trip dont use the battery heat unless it gets below
freezing this is around 40mph secondary roads no hw.

You should be able to do a round trip for your 26 mile run with 60ah cells
to 80% dod without heat around 40mph if its fairly flat (im in detroit its
flat.)

If i had it to do over again (and indeed i do with the red one thats lead) i
would go 60 ah cells.

Cycle life= unknown no one that i know of has every worn out lifepos without
having something (over charge, high heat etc) kill them first. Theory has it
at 2000 cycles at .3C to 80 dod.

I have 2 sets of cells
old thunderskys 60ah with no bms and alum at both + and - (the bad ones in
other words.)

They are 4.5 years old have 600 cycles and still are at least 50AH (i
stopped there) but given the voltage i think they would have made it to 60ah
at 1C at 70F

I have 2 year old blackhawk (company is gone now) cells with 800 cycles to
about 60% dod roughly (green force) they are still over 100AH at .5c I
stopped testing there at 70F.

I cant for the life of me tell these cells have been used they just work.

Will 60's last as long as 100's in a force. Id guess not but would they last
40% less again id guess not but its all a guess at this point. I think i
wasted money going to 100AH cells i just dont need the range and neither do
you.

Given you need 2500 in batteries now its a no brainer perhaps (if you can
afford it to go the lifepo4's)

I have 100 52 cells in the trunk area of my green force but i had to build a
shelf and lost most of the trunk. I left 3 leads in the front to bring the
front down and to help REALLY helps in the slow. This is the absolute best
2wd car ive ever driven in the detroit snow.

With 60's you could keep your trunk *brace the cover so things in the trunk
dont sit on the cells I would several small wooden dowels slightly longer
than the cells placed all around the cells. You would need the 3 leads
(perhaps 2) in the front box for ballance. Having them all in one area helps
make wiring the bms easier and everything is at the same temp. I wouldnt use
the battery heat except to raise everything over 40F for charging.

If you want to talk about it let me know.


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