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  #1  
Old 11-04-2008, 11:45 PM
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Default [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

How much heat does a car heater put out ?

(I am speaking about the cabin heater that uses engine coolant via the
heater core.)

In 40 below weather, how large must an electrical heating element be to
keep the cabin warm ?

Thanks

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  #2  
Old 11-05-2008, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

Please search the archives, this topic has been discussed quite a bit
and mostly in relation to ceramic heater element experiments in (very)
cold weather, so I think you can find a lot of data there instead of
re-inventing it.

If you still have questions after digging the archive, please do get
back with the additions, then we can supplement what is already out
there instead of doing it again. When you provide references to what you
found, you even add a lot of value to others searching for the same
data.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: xxx@xxx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Altenguy
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

How much heat does a car heater put out ?

(I am speaking about the cabin heater that uses engine coolant via the
heater core.)

In 40 below weather, how large must an electrical heating element be to
keep the cabin warm ?

Thanks

_______________________________________________
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http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2008, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

[quote] Cor van de Water wrote:
> Please search the archives, this topic has been discussed quite a bit
> and mostly in relation to ceramic heater element experiments in (very)
> cold weather, so I think you can find a lot of data there instead of
> re-inventing it.

Could you give me a link to the archives that allows searching all of
them at once ?

Thanks

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  #4  
Old 11-05-2008, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

[quote] Cor van de Water wrote:
> Please search the archives, this topic has been discussed quite a bit
> and mostly in relation to ceramic heater element experiments in (very)
> cold weather, so I think you can find a lot of data there instead of
> re-inventing it.

I searched here with the word "heater" in the message and didn't turn up
much.

http://evdl.org/archive/asearch.html

I don't see a discussion as to how much heat power a standard car heater
core puts out. I don't see anyone talking about how much heat it takes
to keep a car cabin warm at -40C. Its really nice that you guys in
Oregon and Florida don't need to worry about those sorts of temps, but
some of us do.

I thus reassert my questions.

Thanks

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  #5  
Old 11-05-2008, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

I searched on the words
" ceramic heater john wayland" and the first post it found
was very relevant, including the reference
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-to12848664|a12852670

Which points us to the original article from 1997:
http://www.evsource.com/articles/heater_compare.php

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: xxx@xxx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Altenguy
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?


[quote] Cor van de Water wrote:
> Please search the archives, this topic has been discussed quite a bit
> and mostly in relation to ceramic heater element experiments in (very)

> cold weather, so I think you can find a lot of data there instead of
> re-inventing it.

I searched here with the word "heater" in the message and didn't turn up
much.

http://evdl.org/archive/asearch.html

I don't see a discussion as to how much heat power a standard car heater
core puts out. I don't see anyone talking about how much heat it takes
to keep a car cabin warm at -40C. Its really nice that you guys in
Oregon and Florida don't need to worry about those sorts of temps, but
some of us do.

I thus reassert my questions.

Thanks

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2008, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

A electric heater is rate at 3412 btus of heat per 1000 watts. If your cab
R-factor is low which could be rated at one R-factor for one single pane of
glass and one layer of 20 gage metal.

Lets say your cabin size has the area of a 5 foot cube, then 5 x 5 x 5 = 125
square foot (SF) of external wall space and the outside temperature is -40
degrees and you want to maintain 70 degree cab temperature which is a 110
degrees temperature difference (TD)

Therefore: Btus = SF x ((1 R factor)/1) x TD
125 x 1 u factor x 110
13,750 Btus

Watts = 13,740 Btus / 3412 btu per 1000 watts
Watts = 4029 watts or 4.029 kw

The coldest it even got for my EV was when it was setting outside at work at
a elevation of 3600 feet was 39 below which peak this temperature for about
a hour.

I use one 640 watt cab heater on the driver side and one 840 cab heater on
the passenger side. A 1000 watt electric water heater is use to heat the
existing hot water core.

On some vehicles you may have to make a adjustment in the outside air damper
doors that bring in some cold outside air to temper hot engine water that
could be over 240 degrees. You can close these outside damper air inlets so
your electric heating systems does not have to be as hot.

I find I can defrost my windshield with 50 degree water heat if I close
these air inlet doors.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Altenguy" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?


> How much heat does a car heater put out ?
>
> (I am speaking about the cabin heater that uses engine coolant via the
> heater core.)
>
> In 40 below weather, how large must an electrical heating element be to
> keep the cabin warm ?
>
> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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  #7  
Old 11-06-2008, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

[quote]On 5 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Altenguy wrote:

> Could you give me a link to the archives that allows searching all of
> them at once ?

There isn't one -- yet -- though there will be eventually. Right now we
have three "eras" of material in different archives.

1. The oldest is in the Repp archive, which covers 1997-2003.

http://repp.org/discussion/ev/

It's a bit inconvenient; you have to use an external search engine to find
what you want. For example, with Google, use the query string

ceramic heater btu site:repp.org

This will also locate material in other archives besides ours, however.

2. Mail Archive covers from early 2003 to August 2007.

http://www.mail-archive.com/xxx@xxx.xxx.edu/

3. The EVDL archive covers posts from August 2007 to the present.

http://evdl.org/archive/

Eventually, all of the material from the earlier archives, including my
regrettably incomplete one going as far back as 1994, will be incorporated
into the current one.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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  #8  
Old 11-06-2008, 05:58 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

[quote] EVDL Administrator wrote:
> On 5 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Altenguy wrote:
>
> > Could you give me a link to the archives that allows searching all of
> > them at once ?
>
> There isn't one -- yet -- though there will be eventually. Right now we
> have three "eras" of material in different archives.
>
> 1. The oldest is in the Repp archive, which covers 1997-2003.
>
> http://repp.org/discussion/ev/
>
> It's a bit inconvenient; you have to use an external search engine to find
> what you want. For example, with Google, use the query string
>
> ceramic heater btu site:repp.org
>
> This will also locate material in other archives besides ours, however.
>
> 2. Mail Archive covers from early 2003 to August 2007.
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/xxx@xxx.xxx.edu/
>
> 3. The EVDL archive covers posts from August 2007 to the present.
>
> http://evdl.org/archive/
>
> Eventually, all of the material from the earlier archives, including my
> regrettably incomplete one going as far back as 1994, will be incorporated
> into the current one.

Thanks

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  #9  
Old 11-06-2008, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

The numbers I have heard about and I have done a little design with are:

20,000Btu for a modern big car air conditioner, I think Solectria Forces had
about half this. But I am not sure.

My gut tells me that you want at least 10,000BTU for heat (defrost, really)
~3kW, or 20 A on a traction pack of 144-156V?. But if others have gotten
away with less, then use their data. If you scrape well *before* driving
then your needs may very well be less.

This is going from memory on 5 year old EV projects so beware...

Seth
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2008, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] How much heat does a car heater put out ?

Best answer to these questions is "it depends." There are way too many
factors to make a judgement. You're best off with empirical and
anecdotal information.

How well insulated is the cabin against heat radiation? Are there any
air leaks?
Is the air recirculated or from outside, or somewhere in between?
How big is the cabin?

Empirically speaking, I have a 1500W electric heater that can heat a
fair-sized room in my home.

[quote]Altenguy wrote:
> How much heat does a car heater put out ?
>
> (I am speaking about the cabin heater that uses engine coolant via the
> heater core.)
>
> In 40 below weather, how large must an electrical heating element be to
> keep the cabin warm ?
>
> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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