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  #1  
Old 11-19-2009, 12:46 PM
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Default [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

Took great issue with a recent TIME article on EV's Sent the following
Letter to the Editor...

Article read:
As Electric Cars Arrive, Where Will They Plug In?

Check it out and add your own voice at:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1940117,00.html
----------------------------------------------------
Dear TIME:
Take Great issue with your first LINE. ."There are probably fewer =

than 1,500 plug-in electric vehicles on the road"

In our City alone One of our EV Dealers has sold OVER 300 Road Worthy =

Electric Cars. And this does not count a growing fleet of TESLA =

Roadsters, and dozens of Home Built Converted gas cars to Electric.

Check out the ( www.EV Photo Album ) for a few thousand more.

California's brief experiment with EV's in the mid 90's found that even =

with HUNDREDS of public charging stations, 95% of EV Owners charged AT =

HOME every evening. The so-called =93Infrastructure=94 is already HERE.

The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculates that 80% of =

all the motor cars in America could be Electric Tomorrow night, and if =

they charged at home off peak, that there would be no need for any =

further electric generation than what we already have. Please do more =

research before publication=85

Steve Lough
President
Seattle EV Association
Chapter of the National EAA(www.eaaev.org)

------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: For those of you who get e-mail from CalCar.org, please take the =

time to read the OpEd which Thomas Friedman recently wrote in the NY =

Times... He's MY kind of guy.....
-- =

Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 524 1351
Cell: 206 850 8535
e-mail: xxx@xxx.xxx
web: http://www.seattleeva.org

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  #2  
Old 11-19-2009, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Steven Lough <xxx@xxx.xxx>wro=
te:

> Took great issue with a recent TIME article on EV's Sent the following
> Letter to the Editor...
>
> Article read:
> As Electric Cars Arrive, Where Will They Plug In?
>
> Check it out and add your own voice at:
>
> http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1940117,00.html
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Dear TIME:
> Take Great issue with your first LINE. ."There are probably fewer
> than 1,500 plug-in electric vehicles on the road"
>
> In our City alone One of our EV Dealers has sold OVER 300 Road Worthy
> Electric Cars. And this does not count a growing fleet of TESLA
> Roadsters, and dozens of Home Built Converted gas cars to Electric.
>
> Check out the ( www.EV Photo Album ) for a few thousand more.
>
> California's brief experiment with EV's in the mid 90's found that even
> with HUNDREDS of public charging stations, 95% of EV Owners charged AT
> HOME every evening. The so-called =93Infrastructure=94 is already HERE.
>
> The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculates that 80% of
> all the motor cars in America could be Electric Tomorrow night, and if
> they charged at home off peak, that there would be no need for any
> further electric generation than what we already have. Please do more
> research before publication=85
>
> Steve Lough
> President
> Seattle EV Association
> Chapter of the National EAA(www.eaaev.org)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS: For those of you who get e-mail from CalCar.org, please take the
> time to read the OpEd which Thomas Friedman recently wrote in the NY
> Times... He's MY kind of guy.....
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 524 1351
> Cell: 206 850 8535
> e-mail: xxx@xxx.xxx
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I e-mailed "Time "Also =3D=3D=3D=3D=

[top]3D


3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

[top]3D


3D

To: xxx@xxx.xxx
Dear Sirs;

I must disagree with a few of the points in the article, "As Electric Cars
Arrive, Where Will They Plug In? "

#1, the number of plug-in electric vehicles is closer to 3,000 if you
consider gasoline powered cars converted to electric along with the fleet
vehicles you included and the plug-in hybrids. You only seem to include
vehicles from Major Manufacturers.

#2, Charging an electric plug in vehicle uses no more power than an
electric clothes dryer, most homes are adequately supplied, although the
electric utilities may be seeking grants for unnecessary grid upgrades
anyway, (It's the American Way!)

#3,Terminal locations like shopping malls, and workplaces, and highway
travel intermediate locations for trips over 75 miles will come with demand
and higher gasoline prices. But the most used charging location will always
be at home.
#4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your regional nuclear plant.
-- Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
(Like John Hancock said, "So George can read it without his Glasses.")
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2009, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

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  #4  
Old 11-20-2009, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

[quote] Evan Tuer <evan.xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <xxx@xxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
> > #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your regional nuclear plant.
>
> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> worthwhile for some reason.
>
> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V. That's good for 75 miles of
> highway driving.
> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>
> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that 200kW.
>
> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> standard.
>
> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> minutes are nothing special either.
>
> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>
> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
>

I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires 3200
Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes 22
A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
likely. (:-))

Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2009, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

At risk of wedging my foot firmly in my mouth, aside from EESTOR is anyone
optimistic about ultra capacitors ? (in the next 10 years)
helping with shorter charge times (combing caps+bats, or if price is right a
whole pack of caps) ?
I know right now its fantasy, but I want to ask....

I know there was a company that was converting saturn SUVs and was showing
ultra caps in their promotional vids...
anyone know who they are/where ?
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2009, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

AFS Trinity
http://afstrinity.com/xh.htm
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2009, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

I guess thats just to ease pack use under acceleration and for fast
regen.... my bad.
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2009, 10:45 AM
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2009, 11:56 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

I never read Time magazine and I don't know anybody else who does either.
Time and CNN of course are the same and CNN has an anti electric car bias
which probably stems from it's global warming denial bias. I have an
electric car because it doesn't use petroleum. I don't care if that's good
or bad for anything other than giving me a choice about how to fuel my own
transportation. The fact that it is cheaper than oil is good. The electric
utilities don't have a problem with selling more electricity. Why the heck
would anyone else care? I read this article and it is total nonsense from
beginning to end!

[quote] Dennis Miles <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <xxx@xxx.xxx>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
> > > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your regional nuclear plant.
> >
> > It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> > if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> > worthwhile for some reason.
> >
> > For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V. That's good for 75 miles of
> > highway driving.
> > Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
> >
> > (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that
> 200kW.
> >
> > Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> > standard.
> >
> > Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> > minutes are nothing special either.
> >
> > You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> > 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
> >
> > ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
> >
>
> I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
> recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
> is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires
> 3200
> Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
> the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
> has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
> recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
> Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
> I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
> output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
> handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes 22
> A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
> You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
> likely. (:-))
>
> Regards,
> Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
> Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2009, 03:17 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

Dennis,
Nobody transports 0.7MW at 220V if they can avoid it.
Look in your neighborhood. Do you see hundreds of
strands of 2/0 cable hung on poles?
No, the power company uses a medium voltage line
to transport the power at a high voltage at low current.

Now before you say that is dangerous - for many decades
everyone had many boxes with upwards of 25,000 Volts in
their house and very few people had problems with that.
They just switched on the tube and watched.
The 53kWh in 5 mins at that voltage is only about 25 Amp,
you can easily and very safely fit a HV cable for that
in a hose much thinner than a regular gas nozzle hose.
(For an optimized design on cable diameter, you'd
probably use 3-phase which means only 1/3 current in each
cable.)
Even at your unrealistic low 220V level the current would
drop to about 1000A in a 3-phase system which current seems
to flow well though a 2/0 cable as used by most EV converters.
You'd probably need to cool it but that is nothing new,
I think it was the Magnecharger which also had water-cooling
in its charger paddle or receptacle to avoid overheating.
One bundle of 3x 2/0 cable is clumsy but not much more than
today's fuel nozzle and hose.

I would *love* to hear of a charging station with the
problems you mention where they have 16 stations charging
simultaneously. It means that we have finally transitioned.
Solving those problems is just ordinary design work and
century-old technology, nothing new needs to be invented to
do it today. The electricity grid can take it, so the
infrastructure is ready until there is a *significant*
percentage of EVs, then things may start shifting.
But that means *tens* of *millions* EVs on the road.

I agree that (slower) charging at home is preferred for
many reasons, but there may still be a market for fast
charging on the go, just like that there is almost no
airport without a paid wireless internet service.
You'd probably pay quite a bit more for the service than
charging at home but if you need to go, you will gladly
pay instead of waiting a few hours or staying overnight.

Even if the charging station is capable of charging 16 EVs
all at the same time, does not mean that they take that
power directly from the grid. Grid connection power is
costly and peak load even costlier, so it will pay for itself
to have a load leveling battery (or flywheel for that matter)
onsite so that the load on the grid is no more than the
agreed rate, probably about 1/3 of the peak.
In many industries this is known as "oversubscription" and it
is almost never noticeable when done correctly, unless you
happen to monitor your maximum bandwidth routinely or you are
the one being bumped from a flight.
Probably you still need a few (2 or 3) Megawatts but at the
same medium voltage that translates into a few tens of Amps
only at 3-phase so nothing serious that cannot be handled
in any average town or city.

If the local grid is unreliable (as in some areas of the world
including USA) then they may install a backup diesel generator
as you see in many industrial parks and at every hospital.
(I know, not a good thing for an EV economy, but you could
replace them with solar/wind/water/whatever where applicable)
Or they could try to harvest the difference between the low
night tariff and the day tariff for electricity by installing
a hugh (probably submarine battery size) backup pack.
Let's see how large it needs to be and if they can make
money with that operation:
Let us assume that the fast-charging "gas" station is doing well
so it is continuously busy and using 2 MW for 8 hours a day
and recharges that energy at night.
(In practice the load will vary during say a 15 hour day, so
for simplicity I put the half loads together in half the time)
16MWh would require a pack - I think I saw a submarine
battery spec at 8000Ah - of 1000 cells minimum at 2V.
Presuming they want the pack to last it will likely be closer
to 2000 cells. If they pay the same price of about $100 per
kWh for lead-acids that we do then the price of this pack is
$3,200,000.
If the difference in price between day and night is 5c per kWh
then they save 16MWh * 0.05/kWh = $800 per day. They will earn
the pack investment back in 4,000 days or about 11 years, but
this is assuming that it is only there to displace the day
tariff with night tariff.
The power company might make a deal with them to install this
pack because it may offload their grid enough to lower the
investments that the power company need to do.
Or the "gas" station may sell power at midday peak rates to
the electricity company when the local grid overloads and
earn much more than $800 a day.
And the "gas" station does not suffer from power outages.
Or I may have taken the wrong values and the picture is
entirely different. Or a grant or incentive is awarded to
provide de-centralized grid backup and the battery bank is
paid for with government money....
And the fast-charge station may be able to sell its CO2
certificates for good money.... but that has nothing to do
with the backup, only with the energy supplied to zero
emissions vehicles.

BTW - I did not hear an *enormous* advantage of the home
charging by 80% of the people... That is that 80% of the
smelly and dangerous gas stations will disappear from our
living areas and the remaining 20% will be able to convert
to deliver clean fuel. No more dangerous tanker truck
transports of a highly flammable fuel next to our homes,
no more fuel depots where an accident means a catastrophe.
And the list goes on...
Wow. Aren't you glad that the future is electric!

Any more 'problems' that an EE can easily solve that the
Time article tried to create?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: xxx@xxx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

[quote] Evan Tuer <evan.xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <xxx@xxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
> > #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would

> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your regional nuclear
plant.
>
> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> worthwhile for some reason.
>
> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V. That's good for 75 miles of
> highway driving.
> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>
> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that
200kW.
>
> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> standard.
>
> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> minutes are nothing special either.
>
> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>
> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than
> yours========
>

I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our
charger is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source
requires 3200 Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32
to 50 homes...And the convenience store next to the Interstate where I
sometimes buy Gasoline has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same
time. An equavilent EV recharger would require the supply suitable of a
small town with 800 homes.
Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an
alternative.
I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could
be handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours
takes 22 A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
likely. (:-))

Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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