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Formula 1 according to Ripperton

43K views 73 replies 16 participants last post by  kennybobby 
#1 · (Edited)
My predictions of Formula 1 engineering....
*2016 will see introduction of turbo compounding or WERS
Waste Energy Recovery System and 4WD
The 2014 1.6l V6 single turbo is a dead give away,
The turbo V6 will be converted to naturally aspirated. Different pistons, cams and mapping.
The turbo's compressor will be replaced with a 3 phase generator directly powering a motor on the crankshaft. Just 3 cables no controller or batteries.
*KERS will be moved to the front axle because there is slightly more energy there, drive shafts to inboard discs and motors / generators powered by a battery pack and controller.

During acceleration the car will have 3 power sources.
1. KERS discharging 160kW into front wheels.
2. Naturally aspirated V6 putting 400kW to rear wheels.
3. WERS discharging 350kW into V6's crankshaft.

So lets see what happens in the future....:rolleyes:

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2013/8/14875.html
 
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#2 ·
But then again the extremely long header pipes leave even more suspicion and suggest to me that the WERS wont be using a turbine at all.
All turbo engineers know that headers need to be as short as possible to extract the most gain from combustion escaping from the cylinder.
This is where the V6 arrangement comes into play.
The shortest header pipe is no header pipe at all so the middle cylinder of each bank of 3 cylinders will receive the exhaust alternately from each cylinder either side of it through ports not headers.
Once the middle cylinder has dealt with the still expanding gasses from its neighbors, it will then exhaust the finally spent gasses into a header pipe.
So the V6 will have only one header pipe on each head coming from the middle cylinder.
Wont see much more power from this engine but the fuel economy will be amazing.
 
#5 ·
in very highly charged engines exhaust pressures will be greater then the boost . It can be taken to extreams , turning the engine into a compressor dumping all the power to the turbo thus stalling the engine . Higher exhaust pressures then intake seams wrong ! but the valves make it not back up into the intake .
 
#7 ·
350kw is only a tiny portion of the waste when converting liquid fuels like alcohol or gasoline to kinetic energy. When operating efficiently about one hp makes it to the wheels for 7 hp of energy discarded as waste. In high performance motors this ratio is a lot worse. 350kw is the waste from only 67 hp generated. There is a lot of waste, the problem is converting it back to something useful.
 
#8 ·
Heres your worst case scenario.
The flames your seeing is escaped combustion.



At anything above idle rpm the exhaust valve opens DURING combustion not after its finished. As an apprentice Motor Mechanic I was taught a turbo was driven by the spent exhaust gas being pushed out by the piston on the exhaust stroke. Its physically impossible to get something from nothing. Spent exhaust gas has no energy value and its volume is a 10th of the air fuel that was inducted into the cylinder.
The funny thing is what your seeing in the photo above is also happening your car and even in your lawn mower ! 2 stroke or 4 stroke.

I think its awesome that the Formula One community is actually addressing the waste energy issue. The Oil Industry must be writhing.
 
#9 ·
I understand there is a lot of waste energy potentially available, but my question is how is it they can suddenly now recover that energy using a "simple" exhaust turbine.
It just seem such a major leap forward in thermal efficiency that its hard to believe no one has even a small step in that direction before.??
 
#11 ·
it's turning the engine into the compressor and combustion chamber of a jet engine . The turbo/generator side is the power generating side of turbine engine .You could absorb all the power in the turbo if the pressure went high enough . the limitation is how much heat / pressure can everything take.
Let's say 150 psi (exhaust side) will consume all the crankshaft power almost stalling the engine . All power is going to the turbine section (3 stage turbo).
 
#15 · (Edited)
It not clear exactly what the details are.
The second link suggests the "KER's" ( front wheel ??) motors will be double the output of this years system at 160bhp, with the "WER's" ( exhaust recovery) system adding even more charge to the battery presumably able to be used by either the ??kW hybrid rear drive ( as this year), the front drive, and also to drive the turbocharger for extra boost when needed ??
But with only 25kg of battery (Supercaps ?) to play with, that limits the total energy available per lap.
Very complex, this is becoming much more a "software" race formula.

EDIT: .. Actually, ..other than Rip'tns "2016 crystal ball", .. i cant see any suggestion that the KER's system will be moved to the front wheels, infact there is a statement that says...
.
To compensate for the extra power being generated under braking by ERS, teams will be allowed to use an electronic rear brake control system.
So likely the 2014 KERS is just a enhanced version of the 2013 rear system ?
 
#16 ·
Ripper'tn,.. i can understand the logic of moving the KERS to the front wheels, but i am pretty sure that 4WD is a no go zone ( just like auto gearshift, ABS, etc) for F1 designers.
Do you have any other sources that suggest/support your thinking that FWD/KERS could be a reality in F1 in the near future ( 2016) ??
 
#17 ·
4WD F1 is just my mad ramblings at this stage.
The logic is to have more rubber to road transmitting engine power and brake power (both friction and regen).
Before KERS the rear tires were doing a lot more work that the front.
With about 55 front / 45 rear friction brake bias the rears are doing almost as much brake work as the fronts AND they were dealing with 100% of the engine power under accel.
With KERS you arnt actually placing more braking load on the rears but you are putting more drive energy (80bhp then and 160bhp now) through the rears.
All these changes F1 is going through now are placing more and more loads on the rear tires.
They will need to do more load sharing if they want to stop tires exploding in race.

 
#18 ·
Ripperton- I hate to burst your bubble my friend, but we've got nothing remotely close to 350kW of shaft power from the exhaust turbine. In fact, it's closer to being an order of magnitude too high.

The reason the turbo can contribute to making an extra 350kW is due to using the relatively small amount of shaft energy collected from the turbine to drive the compressor wheel to feed large amounts of additional air into the engine which can then burn more fuel and make an extra 350kW. The shaft power is never more than 100 even in the largest turbo drag cars (4 digit HP values) I ever worked with.

They also aren't leaving fatigue budget for front tire loading on the table unused. If someone was, they wouldn't be competitive.
 
#20 ·
Ripperton- I hate to burst your bubble my friend,
The reason the turbo can contribute to making an extra 350kW is due to using the relatively small amount of shaft energy collected from the turbine to drive the compressor wheel to feed large amounts of additional air into the engine which can then burn more fuel and make an extra 350kW. The shaft power is never more than 100 even in the largest turbo drag cars (4 digit HP values) I ever worked with.
Dont flatter yourself Luke, Im not the type of person that has "bubbles" :rolleyes:
I should have warned that my OP figures were rough as people seem to have taken them quite literally and overlooked the more important fact that I got the turbo generator part right.
I can see with your Turbo drag car mindset you dont really understand where these F1 boys are today. They are going for fuel economy not straight out shaft snapping, energy wasting horse power.
I bet now, they are running only a fraction of the boost pressures that they were running in the Senna years.
 
#21 ·
http://www.gizmag.com/formula-one-new-hybrid-tech/30560/

Read this right to the bottom, It just gets better
MGU-H = Motor Generator Unit - Heat (connected to turbo)
MGU-K = Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic (connected to crankshaft)
Like I thought the MGU-H does actually drive the MGU-K directly and also charges the battery.

The MGU-H's yield is not part of the 2 megajoule per lap KERS equation, it just goes flat out whenever the driver has his foot on the throttle.

At low rpm when you would normally have turbo lag the MGU-H actually drives the turbo impeller to pre boost the V6's inlet !!!!!!!!!!
 
#25 ·
...At low rpm when you would normally have turbo lag the MGU-H actually drives the turbo impeller to pre boost the V6's inlet !!!!!!!!!!
And, something I found very interesting, is it can also slow the turbo down, functioning like a waste gate. That's incredible electronic control over both sides of boost, which is sure to filter down to the street, for ICE guys. For us, it bring things a step closer, making people more familiar/more comfortable with electric drive, and showing its awesome potential for precision control.


I also like that an increasing amount of their total available power is coming from electric, and they have to use it wisely in the actual race - that also plays right into familiarizing people with electric drive and how to use it effectively. Imagine young wannabes (safely, of course) imitating racers, practicing getting the best combination of power and range from their drivers. :)
 
#27 ·
Well, first race of the new F1 regulation season done .....
..and i suspect the reigning World F1 champion,..Seb Vetel.. is not a big fan of the changes !..nor will several others be.
Only a few of the teams manages to get their technical act really together such that they even finished the race. McClaren seemed the most consistent (3rd & 4th) and whilst Mercedes and Red Bull were ahead at the finish, they only managed to keep one car running each. ( and the Red Bull may yet be disqualified anyway)
It appeared that many teams just could not get the ERS (electrical power) working as it should, leaving them way off the pace (EG , Vetel, Hamilton etc). But with such a silly restricted testing allowance , that is not surprising.
 
#28 · (Edited)
They sound unmistakably "V6" just like the 80's/90's but I cant believe how fucking slow they are. They are visibly slow.
10 years ago Schumacher was 8 seconds faster per lap than this.
This strengthens my philosophy that to make power you have to waste power. As soon as you start trying to be efficient you start going slow.

Australians arnt shy of making their feelings known. The cheers from the crowd (and my living room) when Vettel broke down were unmistakable. :D
 
#29 ·
8 secs a lap is nothing. ..That could simply be the difference in tyres used.
Slower lap times dont worry me, nor does the slower speeds or the reduced power and noise... ( i think it a very "technical" sound now)
But, what i do want to see is better racing, more overtaking, more driver input...IE, better competition. I prefer the wet races because they demand more driver input
Now that the drivers have to think about when to use their ERS and have to control the higher torque, it has added some interest for me.
But we seem to still have the confusion over the regulations. !
 
#32 · (Edited)
I didn't see the race, but I listened to some testing videos yesterday - I don't like it. Turbo V6 sounds like we're back in the 80s again - classic ICE sound. :( The high-revving NA V8/10s sounded otherworldly, spaceship-like. A step backwards, IMO...

FIA sucks (along with many other sanctioning bodies). One of the reasons I lost interest in drag racing is some of my favorite tracks ended up under the dictates of the "racing lords", and what's required just to step on their hallowed grounds is ludicrous. Like a new Corvette could get kicked off the track for not having a roll cage - yeah, that compact car with the bolt-in cage is much safer... Idiots.
 
#34 ·
I don't know what the volume settings were on that recording but I remember the old turbo days
Those cars were LOUD - I could not take any pictures at practice at Brands Hatch because I had to put my camera down and cover my ears

The old Cosworths were a LOT quieter than the turbo cars
 
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