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  #1  
Old 07-02-2012, 02:44 PM
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jddcircuit jddcircuit is offline
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Default Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

I pickup a Gen 2 Prius Transaxle, half shafts, parking prawl and inverter for $550 bucks this weekend. I am pretty excited about it. I have been working a while with a Gen 1 setup that I got for free for sometime now but I couldn't pass this up since it was local and the price was right. It has a few differences from the Gen 1 setup that I am interested in.

I just skimmed a few documents from Oakridge Nat Labs and I have some questions.
Some of the graphs show 400Nm at 250 amps for the main traction motor.
I also read that the traction motor peaks at around 50kW at 1500 rpm with the battery supplying 20kW through the boost converter and the other 30kW coming from the generator being pushed by the combustion engine. At this rpm the back emf is only around 200volts which is what the gen 2 prius battery pack is at.

My question is that based on the above information it sounds like if I put a 500V pack bypassing the boost converter then I can get 500V x 250A = 125kW out of the main traction motor alone. This voltage puts me up around 3750 motor rpm or over 900 axle rpm which is about 60mph depending on wheel size.

Am I way off on this?

Regards
Jeff
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2012, 09:24 PM
fireblade fireblade is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Read the document again. It should show that the power range over the voltage and current. What you are missing is the back emf so your 500volts gets cut down by the emf.

If you hit up ornl again or search on my name you will find the references to the Camry which may be a better performing motor, 70KW, 270NM. It has the same problem with a limited booster (converter) performance. You may be able to get away with a parallel/series battery pack, which operates at low rpm in parallel and high rpm in series.

Last edited by fireblade; 09-16-2012 at 10:05 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2012, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireblade View Post
Read the document again. It should show that the power range over the voltage and current. What you are missing is the back emf so your 500volts gets cut down by the emf.

If you hit up ornl again or search on my name you will find the references to the Camry which may be a better performing motor, 70KW, 270NM. It has the same problem with a limited booster (converter) performance. You may be able to get away with a parallel/series battery pack, which operates at low rpm in parallel and high rpm in series.
One of my plans is to beef up the 20kw boost converter to 50kw. The way I plan on doing this is to use 3 extra inductor coils and the 3 built in igbt pairs used for MG1 to create 3 more boost converters in parallel with the built in 20kw converter. The net result should allow me to supply the full 50kw to MG2 with a 200V battery pack.

I am open to the idea of switching from parallel to series pack. It will be considered and perhaps tried as part of the experiment of trying to get the most out of these
junkyard parts.

Thanks for the info about the Camry. I haven't researched their configuration yet.

Regards
Jeff

Last edited by jddcircuit; 09-17-2012 at 07:12 AM. Reason: typo and added thanks
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:59 PM
fireblade fireblade is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

I think linear technologies has a chip that will do what you are suggesting, either a 3phase or 4 phase boost converter.

You may want to take a look at the Z-Source Inverter. In short this converter uses the the semiconductors in the 3 phase a/c converter (before the windings) to create boost through 2 inductors. The issue is to change the pwm timing to accomplish this. The approach looks very novel. The first paper seems to describe a solution.

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~tolbert/pub...a_may_2006.pdf

http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y...isc/124167.pdf
http://antalroberrr.wordpress.com/my-projects/
http://vbn.aau.dk/files/43475994/Nov...e_Inverter.pdf
http://www.ijcee.org/papers/206-E266.pdf
http://www.europeanjournalofscientif...SR_68_3_14.pdf
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/repos...2/farhangi.pdf
http://ir.lib.ntust.edu.tw/bitstream...c+Vehicles.pdf

Also here is the reference of the parallel/series battery circuit.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/rectactor.pdf

Last edited by fireblade; 09-17-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2012, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireblade View Post
I think linear technologies has a chip that will do what you are suggesting, either a 3phase or 4 phase boost converter.

You may want to take a look at the Z-Source Inverter. In short this converter uses the the semiconductors in the 3 phase a/c converter (before the windings) to create boost through 2 inductors. The issue is to change the pwm timing to accomplish this. The approach looks very novel. The first paper seems to describe a solution.

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~tolbert/pub...a_may_2006.pdf

http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y...isc/124167.pdf
http://antalroberrr.wordpress.com/my-projects/
http://vbn.aau.dk/files/43475994/Nov...e_Inverter.pdf
http://www.ijcee.org/papers/206-E266.pdf
http://www.europeanjournalofscientif...SR_68_3_14.pdf
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/repos...2/farhangi.pdf
http://ir.lib.ntust.edu.tw/bitstream...c+Vehicles.pdf

Also here is the reference of the parallel/series battery circuit.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/rectactor.pdf
This Z source inverter looks very interesting. It will take me some time to study this more closely but I will before I commit to a boost solution.

Right now I am working on mechanically installing my transaxle and battery pack in my car. I will then have time to get serious with my motor control software and boost solution.

Thank you very much for the links they are going to help. So much to learn.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:56 PM
aeroscott aeroscott is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Check the links in post #693 , page 70 , Ripperton Electric track bike , bike forum . D.O.E. did a reverse engineering study on Prius 2004, Prius 2010 , Camray , LX600H . then compared the 4 types .This is the most in depth study I have ever seen .
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  #7  
Old 09-18-2012, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeroscott View Post
Check the links in post #693 , page 70 , Ripperton Electric track bike , bike forum . D.O.E. did a reverse engineering study on Prius 2004, Prius 2010 , Camray , LX600H . then compared the 4 types .This is the most in depth study I have ever seen .
I agree. I found those links when fireblade told me to search his postings. It is cool to see the evolution of these drive trains. Apparently there is no ideal setup based on the variety of configurations. I am grateful that this information is made public. I look forward to hacking them for better full electric compatibility.

I am going to start with my Gen1 prius traction motor and inverter which is rated the lowest at 30kw power but I got it for free so I don't mind pushing it. It seems like heat is the main limitation so I will have as much cooling as possible. When/if I burn that up I have a 2004 prius setup and now I can start considering the Camry. With all the possible different configurations it is going to be tough to decide which way to go so I decided to start as simple as possible to get something rolling and build on the experience.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:11 AM
aeroscott aeroscott is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

Jddcircuit , cooling seams to be it , I saw that a motor cycle builder is using the Reme motor( very similar to Prius with up graded square wire and probably more magnets ) was getting 200 hp with oil cooling enhancements .


If you look at helicopter gearboxes , they route small tubes to each bearing , gear meshing areas etc and spray oil to lube and cool .

The big commercial utility generators run 5-10 psi Hydrogen as a cooling gas with a water heat exchanger in the generator box for pulling the heat out .
Helium would be safer at the expense of 1/2 the cooling power of H2 . I would stick with what the utilities have been using for over 40 years .
I like oil and H2 booth . pressure oil for the bearing and H2 to get into the small spaces between the wires . Need to find a way to get the gas into all areas of the winding . I would think using less wire to get cooling channels would end up getting more output .
I wonder if the Prius 2 armature could be raped with carbon fiber for higher rpms .
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:20 PM
steven4601 steven4601 is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

hydrogen? Isn't it going to severely attack metals ?
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  #10  
Old 09-18-2012, 03:17 PM
fireblade fireblade is offline
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Default Re: Gen 2 Prius Transaxle power?

When I started down this rabbit hole the other boards said it was a waste of time to use these traction motors for numerous reasons that didn't make much sense.

With jddcircuit's and others work into understanding these motors, and Ripperton's foray into custom packaging his motors I believe that these motors can be an attractive lower cost alternative to what is currently on the market.

My end goal is to use eight of these motors to power a vehicle (560KW/746hp, 2160NM/1593lb-ft torque before reduction 6373lb-ft torque with 4:1 reduction). It would be a 4 wheel drive system, with 2 motors driving each wheel. Each group of 2 motors would be in parallel for simplicity and coupled electrically and mechanically. Oil cooling would be used. No gearbox just a reduction gear between 4 and 6.

With numerous motors, I can maximize on Regenerative Braking to recover as much energy thus extending my range or reducing my battery. I can also ping pong between front and real wheel for driving should there be overheating issues.

At 400lbs for the motors and another 600lbs for batteries and packaging I believe I can get over 120miles per charge.
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