[SCEV]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

Yep - 240V is plenty of voltage to maintain a nice, flat power band with a NetGain advanced timing motor. You might want to run 300V+ if you choose one of the highest voltage Kostov motors, or the interpoled WarP-11HV, but then you won't want to push as much peak current through them (no free lunch - higher voltage tolerance generally means lower current tolerance).

So then what is the advantage of the WarP 11HV over the WarP 11? The regular 11 is $600 cheaper, can take more amps, and requires lower pack voltage (saving me more $).

I'm really down to WarP11, WarP11HV, K10 144V, K11 192V, K11 250V SFM and K11 250V PFM (WarP 11 and K11 192V are my top two ATM). Can anyone help spell out the differences in these, with specs if possible? Like I said in my first post I looked up the specs but don't understand how to compare apples to apples based on what I found.

[somanywelps]

Originally Posted by SCEV

So then what is the advantage of the WarP 11HV over the WarP 11? The regular 11 is $600 cheaper, can take more amps, and requires lower pack voltage (saving me more $).

I'm really down to WarP11, WarP11HV, K10 144V, K11 192V, K11 250V SFM and K11 250V PFM (WarP 11 and K11 192V are my top two ATM). Can anyone help spell out the differences in these, with specs if possible? Like I said in my first post I looked up the specs but don't understand how to compare apples to apples based on what I found.

The higher the voltage, the less battery amps you need to draw for the same kw (HP). (Read as: less amps for a given RPM.)

This requires a high pack voltage, but is easier on the batteries, and more efficient.

You also tend to get higher torque numbers, but the Warp 11 is a non-interpole advanced timing motor and the Warp 11 HV is a Warp 9 armature with interpoles and neutral timing.

Edit: look at the 192V K11 and the 250V K11 (both in series mode). Now look at the bottom at the torque. Notice anything?


Edit2: Multiply Voltage*Amps to get your kw. Then multiply by efficiency to get your power at the shaft (you can convert it to HP if you want).

K11A 250V:
0.4585365853658537x + -35.26829268292684

312ft*lb per 1 @1000A
624ft*lb per 2 @1000A
177ft*lb per 1 @600A
354ft*lb per 2 @600A
143ft*lb per 1 @500A
286ft*lb per 2 @500A

K11 250V:
0.47586206896551725x + -22.93103448275862

334ft*lb per 1 @1000A
668ft*lb per 2 @1000A
193.67ft*lb per 1 @600A
387ft*lb per 2 @600A
158.57ft*lb per 1 @500A
317.14ft*lb per 2 @500A

K9 220V:
Torque=0.4074074074074074*Amps + -27.703703703703695

300ft*lb per 1 @1000A
600ft*lb per 2 @1000A
159ft*lb per 1 @600A
308ft*lb per 2 @600A
130ft*lb per 1 @500A
260ft*lb per 2 @500A


Warp11HV:
0.45918367346938777x + -102.51020408163265

1000A 357ft*lb

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by SCEV

So then what is the advantage of the WarP 11HV over the WarP 11? The regular 11 is $600 cheaper, can take more amps, and requires lower pack voltage (saving me more $).

The -11HV is supposed to have more commutator segments (though I don't know this for sure!) and along with the interpoles allows it to produce more torque per amp and handle a much higher voltage (288 vs. 170) than the stock WarP-11. It can't take as much current for as long as the -11, but it still puts out a higher peak power (at least one documented excursion to 500hp on a chassis dyno).

Originally Posted by SCEV

I'm really down to WarP11, WarP11HV, K10 144V, K11 192V, K11 250V SFM and K11 250V PFM (WarP 11 and K11 192V are my top two ATM). Can anyone help spell out the differences in these, with specs if possible? Like I said in my first post I looked up the specs but don't understand how to compare apples to apples based on what I found.

Can't help you there. I don't think anybody has true comparative data for all these different motors, or even more than two of them.

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

Au contraire... the Remy HVH250 is made in the USA, is liquid cooled and can be purchased retail from: http://vaxosystems.com/store/category/53-motors.aspx

Thanks for the link. Always happy to learn about something new.
...and only 3x the price for the same 100kw.

Originally Posted by Tesseract

You might want to take a closer look at the PDF you linked to above. If you multiply the peak voltage and phase current ratings for the motor - even assuming that both are RMS (DC equivalent) values - that's still only 67kW of peak power (320V * 121A * 1.73).

The ac-50 is 50hp and 110ftlbs Peak.
The Scott Drive is 100hp and 200ftlbs Peak. 2X the power seems pretty significant for that extra $900.

There is a big difference between "peak" and "rated". You are using the rated voltage and the rated amps and calling them peak. The Scott Drive motor can supposedly handle 540vdc (nominal) - I will be testing at even higher voltages with a "custom" Scott Drive controller.

Originally Posted by Tesseract

NB - I didn't respond to the rest of your post because it was mostly you trying to prove AC is better and who am I to argue otherwise?

Really? I didn't see that in my post. I am not a big fan of AC. It is more accurate to say that I am not blindly loyal to products that have a very high failure rate. Tim Cattellier is on his 3rd motor. Rickard lost 1 out of 3 so far. I am not getting even close to the rated hp. The stories of failure are growing daily. If controllers were blowing at this rate folks would quickly label them "worthless".

Nothing could be worse for the EV movement in the long run. Just as it is building steam with awesome batteries and controllers, the motors have become the new weak link. Perhaps with some tweaking (like Helwig brushes and high-power blowers) the brushed motors can stay on as an option. But to have SO many people pouring their savings and time into their project only to end up with an expensive fireworks display is unworkable.

I only seek a reliable and affordable drive system. Power and price is nice, but reliability is a MUST. I cannot at this time recommend a brushed motor to a person doing a conversion until these issues are resolved. I am sorry to bring such a dark cloud of reality into the open. But I believe it is better to deal with it now than to sweep it under the rug and have everybody hating EV's in 3 years.

[Batterypoweredtoad]

Rukus-you are on a strong apples to oranges streak. You keep saying the high failure rate of DC but what you are really seeing is the sudden emergence of cheap high power DC controllers. Of course the AC systems are not blowing up motors because all the controllers can manage is the motors rated continuous KW and maybe 2x that peak. A Soliton JR is rated to continuously push 4x the continuous capability of a K11 Alpha and that is Evnetics entry level controller. You put up baby AC systems and say they are more reliable than DC because people who abused their DC motors at 4x the power capability of your AC system blew the motor up.

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by Batterypoweredtoad

what you are really seeing is the sudden emergence of cheap high power DC controllers. A Soliton JR is rated to continuously push 4x the continuous capability of a K11 Alpha and that is Evnetics entry level controller.

That is my point exactly. First it was the weak lead batts, then the wimpy controllers, now that both of these have become ferocious it is the brushed motors that are suffering high failure rates. Perhaps brush improvements will solve the problem, perhaps not. At least you are one of the few who admits there is a problem.

Originally Posted by Batterypoweredtoad

You put up baby AC systems and say they are more reliable than DC because people who abused their DC motors at 4x the power capability of your AC system blew the motor up.

Not sure I can agree that these are "baby" systems. Powertec E215 is only 211 lbs and is rated at 86hp CONTINUOUS and 500 ftlbs of torque. That will blast and keep blasting the doors off any brushed dc motor used in EV's.

Please post Brushed dc specs that are 4x that as you claim.

The people suffering failures are not abusing their motors. They are failing right out of the box or after just a few hundred miles. Of course, if you bother to contact people on evalbum with high ev miles you will get to hear the same story over and over that goes, "everything was great until one day.. "Poof"... the brushes dissolved into nothing. "

Why are you pretending this is some type of rare event caused by abuse?

[somanywelps]

Originally Posted by ruckus

Not sure I can agree that these are "baby" systems. Powertec E215 is only 211 lbs and is rated at 86hp CONTINUOUS and 500 ftlbs of torque. That will blast and keep blasting the doors off any brushed dc motor used in EV's.

Please post Brushed dc specs that are 4x that as you claim.

And the motor alone costs OVER $10,000. What controller were you planning on using with it again?

Edit: it's also got a maximum RPM of 3600 which is completely useless.

Too much torque to use with a stock transmission, and too little RPM to use without one.

[Batterypoweredtoad]

I will gladly admit that we are getting to nearly enough power.

Please spec me a system that has the same continuous rating and peak rating as a K11 alpha and soliton Jr at the same price. Heck, please spec me an equivalent AC system at twice the price. If that doesn't work maybe go 4x the price?

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by somanywelps

Edit: it's also got a maximum RPM of 3600 which is completely useless.

No no, that's the RATED rpm (the rpm at which that hp and torque are guaranteed) The peak hp is actually over 5000 rpm and the motors go to 8000+. 3600rpm is a standard speed for rating industrial motors.

Please don't confuse the 2 separate arguments here.

1. many are claiming bldc are weak with lousy torque. The Powertec stats easily refute this silly argument since they are much more powerful per pound than brushed dc.

2. Many are claiming BLDC are crazy expensive. I have found that not to be true either. There are new offerings on the market that are VERY comparable to the current crop of Brushed DC.

Not sure of Kostov prices, but Netgain 11" are $3000. A decent controller is $2000-3000. Depending on controller you may have to purchase, add and house a contactor, 12v circuits, etc.

So you are talking $5000-6000 for the current brushed setup that is rated at 35hp continuous.

This BLDC system is $5495.
http://shop.greenstage.co.nz/product...-motor-package
It comes with contactors and 4 10amp 12v circuits. The controller is rated at 180kw and the motor at 100kw peak, 35kw continuous. That is 47hp continuous from a motor that is little more than half the weight of the Warp 11.

I have done a little digging into this motor and it has potential to handle 540+vdc. That will raise the peak hp and torque values quite a bit (continuous rating will be fairly similar since that is based on cooling rate).

This combo is reportedly working great for several conversions in NZ with several thousand km and counting. I am thinking to import and test one since the main argument against it is that everybody doesn't already use it.

Cheers

[somanywelps]

Originally Posted by ruckus

No no, that's the RATED rpm (the rpm at which that hp and torque are guaranteed) The peak hp is actually over 5000 rpm and the motors go to 8000+. 3600rpm is a standard speed for rating industrial motors.

I don't see that, but regardless, it's 10 grand so it's useless.

Originally Posted by ruckus

Please don't confuse the 2 separate arguments here.

1. many are claiming bldc are weak with lousy torque. The Powertec stats easily refute this silly argument since they are much more powerful per pound than brushed dc.

NOT AT THE SAME COST LEVEL. AND THE TORQUE IS HIGH, BUT THE KW rating is shit.[/Quote]

Originally Posted by ruckus

2. Many are claiming BLDC are crazy expensive. I have found that not to be true either. There are new offerings on the market that are VERY comparable to the current crop of Brushed DC.

Not sure of Kostov prices, but Netgain 11" are $3000. A decent controller is $2000-3000. Depending on controller you may have to purchase, add and house a contactor, 12v circuits, etc.

So you are talking $5000-6000 for the current brushed setup that is rated at 35hp continuous.

This BLDC system is $5495.
http://shop.greenstage.co.nz/product...-motor-package
It comes with contactors and 4 10amp 12v circuits. The controller is rated at 180kw and the motor at 100kw peak, 35kw continuous. That is 47hp continuous from a motor that is little more than half the weight of the Warp 11.

I have done a little digging into this motor and it has potential to handle 540+vdc. That will raise the peak hp and torque values quite a bit (continuous rating will be fairly similar since that is based on cooling rate).

This combo is reportedly working great for several conversions in NZ with several thousand km and counting. I am thinking to import and test one since the main argument against it is that everybody doesn't already use it.

Cheers

1) Cost

2) You keep ignoring that a K11+Soliton 1 will eat the Scott thing alive, EVEN IF IT WORKS AS ADVERTISED.

The K11 is 50kw continuous.

A more appropriate 135kw peak Brushed DC system(K9 220V+soliton Jr.) would be $3700.

If you wanted to go old school you could go with a Zilla 1k-HV.