[Kelmark]

Originally Posted by IamIan

While I am a fan of solar on a EV... what it takes for cost$ , Weight, and effort... it is one of the last things to target... upgrade other things first... better batteries , etc...

If you are thinking in the ~$1,000 price range.... put the solar panels on a stationary mount at your house.... you will get far more solar kwh per $ from the home instillation.

For my 2 bits... for as much as I love the idea of solar on a EV ... I would first do full Solar for the house ... and upgrade the EV's other components ... both of those before I would look into solar on the EV itself.

-----------

As for the hybrid part....

Any trip you take that does not use the ICE ... the ICE is a waste of space, weight , and $.

The hybrid part doesn't even start to be a net positive until you have already upgraded to Li and are traveling ~100 miles.

So for my 2 bits... Leave the ICE generator as a detachable trailer ... you can hook it up easily enough when you want to do the long trip but for all your other trips it saves you weight , space , complexity , and cost to leave it and not carry it around when it isn't going to be used.

For my 2 bits... unless you are doing ~100 mile trips on a regular basis... once a week or so... it isn't worth the losses to build it into the vehicle itself.

Also don't forget some states will still require you to pass emissions , so don't go committing yourself to and engine that you can't get to pass... which is a secondary benefit of having it be a separate trailer that might not be attached when the vehicle is inspected.

You have many valid points. As for the solar on my roof I am planning on changing to some solar shingles the next time I replace shingles (Nano-solar is making this more affordable). Our electricity is really cheap so it is not a high priority yet. This car will be at car shows and will need to stand out; I thought that by having functional solar it would add uniqueness to the car. Even if it is only 2 miles at 20mph it is worth the $1,000 in image if installed right. People spend much more on custom body kits... Or other bling?

As for the hybrid part I agree that it is wasted weight. I am trying to determine the best way to integrate a removable one that will be mounted to the car. More details as I get to that point, the trailer idea was my first thought but in order to mount the hitch on this car it would be an extra 50 lbs of weight minimum. Then I have the weight of the trailer and the extra Rolling Resistance. Not to mention extra cost. Also in Kansas we do not have emission standards but I am looking at ways to reduce emissions because it is the proper thing to do.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Kelmark

This car will be at car shows and will need to stand out; I thought that by having functional solar it would add uniqueness to the car. Even if it is only 2 miles at 20mph it is worth the $1,000 in image if installed right. People spend much more on custom body kits... Or other bling?

for bling and attention.. yeah well installed solar will grab attention even if it only gives 1 mile a day.

[tomofreno]

Here are som pics of the chassis with new head and pans welded on. With a fresh coat of paint and undercoating. Now I can start some of the fun stuff, intalling the new parts.

Nice, that was quick!

[Evilsizer]

should you go with solar cells on the car, you may want to look into these.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3026810
item 30268-12
assuming your voltage controller can handler higher input voltage to achieve the right charging voltage. you may want to use either 24 or 26 cells in series to get that high V-DC.
Price per 26 cells, $778, Based on a Constant Voltage charging system.

the other cell you might consider is this one.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052286
as pointed out some are less efficient as this one is. using 14 of 3052288 will put your voltage above highest charging voltage to the controller.
Price for 14, $489, based around a Constant Voltage charging system.

one last solar sell i might suggest
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.co...?number=G15302
with these above at .45v take about 375 cells in series. if you have enough area on the car to place that many, it would be the best. though the cost will be higher then the other two i listed.
Price for this .45v cell at 375 cells, $1,875, not including shipping. no weight listed for each cell so no way to calculate weight added to the EV. could be either Constant voltage or constant current charging.

Since im not sure how the charging is going to happen. Is it going to be constant current or constant voltage charging? that might help in which cell to use. my suggestion of using a few more cells in series for higher voltage. Is due to what i have been looking into for solar chargers. that they can take a higher input voltage for the same charging voltage to the batteries. what this means to me by using more cells. Is that with what sun is out i can collect enough power to charge the batteries. If its kinda cloudy and im still getting some good sun it should be enough to charge the battier. same if the sun starts to go down. say the charger has 170-180 V-DC input voltage to charge at 166 V-DC. that gives you more time early morning or late evening to charge the batteries. Might be even enough to try to meet your 3 mile.

One other thing i thought of, if you can pull it off with out looking silly. implement a low starting speed windmill/turbine on the car. it would even be better since as the car is moving it would be charging at the same time. if the body was designed a bit differently you could have forced induction straight to said windmill/turbine in a hidden area under the body some where.

*edit*
im simply tossing ideas out there, how much will they work for this project i dont know. Though it does seem logical to me that using a wind type energy generation would be best for EV cars, that is built into the car it self.

[Kelmark]

Originally Posted by Sunking

I assume your electrical efficiency target is 400 wh/mile. IF you can achieve that, then that would mean the solar panel must generate 1200 wh to give you 3 miles of extra range.

I don't know where you live and thus your solar insolation measured in Sun Hour, but assuming your winter insolation is 3 hours means you need a 600 watt solar panel array. So here lies the problem, the physical area of a 600 watt solar panel is larger than the car.

I thought these numbers looked a bit high so I checked out tom's E-Swift build that uses the AC-50 kit at 115V. He was getting 205 WH per mile at 50mph cruising. My car will be almost 400lbs lighter than his and likely more aerodynamic (still trying to determine). My goal would be to get down to around 180 WH per mile at 50mph.

As for my 3 mile extra range, the speed is 25mph. Just for this estimate I'll take 180/2 for the lower speed =90wh/mile. (Probably be lower in real life) Multiply that times my 3 miles equals 270 WH. "Not 1200"

So if you say 600 watt panel is required for 1200WH. Then I really just need 135w panel at most to get 270WH. But I am not great with numbers so I could be mistaken but I think that it can be done. I just would like some constructive input on how to do it effectively.

[Kelmark]

Originally Posted by Evilsizer

should you go with solar cells on the car, you may want to look into these.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3026810
item 30268-12
assuming your voltage controller can handler higher input voltage to achieve the right charging voltage. you may want to use either 24 or 26 cells in series to get that high V-DC.
Price per 26 cells, $778, Based on a Constant Voltage charging system.

the other cell you might consider is this one.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052286
as pointed out some are less efficient as this one is. using 14 of 3052288 will put your voltage above highest charging voltage to the controller.
Price for 14, $489, based around a Constant Voltage charging system.

one last solar sell i might suggest
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.co...?number=G15302
with these above at .45v take about 375 cells in series. if you have enough area on the car to place that many, it would be the best. though the cost will be higher then the other two i listed.
Price for this .45v cell at 375 cells, $1,875, not including shipping. no weight listed for each cell so no way to calculate weight added to the EV. could be either Constant voltage or constant current charging.

Since im not sure how the charging is going to happen. Is it going to be constant current or constant voltage charging? that might help in which cell to use. my suggestion of using a few more cells in series for higher voltage. Is due to what i have been looking into for solar chargers. that they can take a higher input voltage for the same charging voltage to the batteries. what this means to me by using more cells. Is that with what sun is out i can collect enough power to charge the batteries. If its kinda cloudy and im still getting some good sun it should be enough to charge the battier. same if the sun starts to go down. say the charger has 170-180 V-DC input voltage to charge at 166 V-DC. that gives you more time early morning or late evening to charge the batteries. Might be even enough to try to meet your 3 mile.

One other thing i thought of, if you can pull it off with out looking silly. implement a low starting speed windmill/turbine on the car. it would even be better since as the car is moving it would be charging at the same time. if the body was designed a bit differently you could have forced induction straight to said windmill/turbine in a hidden area under the body some where.

*edit*
im simply tossing ideas out there, how much will they work for this project i dont know. Though it does seem logical to me that using a wind type energy generation would be best for EV cars, that is built into the car it self.

Thank you for the links I will check them out. As for the windmill, I have seen many posts discrediting the idea, due to the drag added to the car uses more energy than you are gaining. But I have looked at some small turbines that could be set up on a pole when parked and charge your battery while away from home.

[Evilsizer]

Originally Posted by Kelmark

Thank you for the links I will check them out. As for the windmill, I have seen many posts discrediting the idea, due to the drag added to the car uses more energy than you are gaining. But I have looked at some small turbines that could be set up on a pole when parked and charge your battery while away from home.

well IMO if the windmill/ turbine is part of the car design then it wouldnt impart much drag onto the car. as in say like what is used on super cars to force air through many radiators to cool the engine. that is kind of the idea i had with implementing one. the type of windmill/turbine i had in mind actually came from this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=376UA...layer_embedded
once you get past the history of windmills/turbines you will see what im talking about. the interesting thing is how long Blower fans have been around yet it seems no one really thought about using them for a different purpose.

i wonder if using that type of fan blade for wind energy generation on say the tail end. would that really add that much drag to the car to make it not worth it even if it had to be external?

by chance do you know of any sites or threads that actually tried such a blade design on a EV? even any type of Wind+ev would be interesting to see. sorry to OT/Thread jack.

[Kelmark]

Originally Posted by Evilsizer

i wonder if using that type of fan blade for wind energy generation on say the tail end. would that really add that much drag to the car to make it not worth it even if it had to be external?

by chance do you know of any sites or threads that actually tried such a blade design on a EV? even any type of Wind+ev would be interesting to see. sorry to OT/Thread jack.

Interesting thought, worth some research, haven't seen any yet but will forward anything I find.

[Sutitan]

I forget exactly what I read, but it was either in Evo or Car magazine, saying that the new m5 will have some sort of micro turbines behind the grill that actually open up during deceleration to capture some energy.

or what about something like the Bugatti's air brake? but replacing it with turbines instead of a dam.



Neither idea would actually generate a substantial amount of power, but that doesn't take away from the cool factor

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Kelmark

I thought these numbers looked a bit high so I checked out tom's E-Swift build that uses the AC-50 kit at 115V. He was getting 205 WH per mile at 50mph cruising. My car will be almost 400lbs lighter than his and likely more aerodynamic (still trying to determine). My goal would be to get down to around 180 WH per mile at 50mph.

I think the ~400Wh/Mile number was more of an over all average vehicle usage number ... the amount of energy you use at ~50MPH at a steady state cruising flat is actually much less than you use during acceleration ... or when going up any kind of significant hill.

When you are trying to determine vehicle distance and over all vehicle Wh/Mile estimates it is generally a good idea to include a buffer for the higher energy times like hills and acceleration... and don't forget to include a inclement weather buffer ... cold will reduce your range.

Originally Posted by Kelmark

But I am not great with numbers so I could be mistaken but I think that it can be done. I just would like some constructive input on how to do it effectively.

If the bling factor of the solar still has significant impact to you... doing a nice clean install covering as much surface area as you can will be more solar bling than the actual % efficiency ... or Watts / Wh of energy it produces.

So along those lines ... I would first target at getting the most clean installed surface area you can... if budget allows then maybe consider increasing efficiency etc...

Flexible solar panels will be easier to install cleanly... to reduce their effect on the vehicles Aerodynamics I recommend a thin clear coat over top to protect them a bit and to smooth some of the edges of the install.

If there is a major university near you... you might luck out if they compete in one of the solar car races... if they do, that would be an excellent source of skill , knowledge , equipment , etc... but you would have to check with the major universities near you to see if they do.

The hood is by far the first major targeted location. fewer curves than many other parts. Decent surface area. easy to access both sides. etc...