[EVDL List]

G'day all.

First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
Secondly, I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.

Some background.....
The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
cells would be okay.

What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.

There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
with my most recent data.

I have been researching more.
Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?

Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
Ni-MH cells....
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
of Ni-MH cells?

FROM WEBSITE
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
"Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"

Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
crappy bicycle?
Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
free of restraint from Chevron?
I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
international order, particularly once shipping was added.

Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
company that has its stakes in oil????

Cheers,
James Drysdale.

[EVDL List]

I believe it's "just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells." Using
600 2Ah cells will give you lots of trouble. Better to use 10Ah or 13Ah
http://www.rabbittool.com/frames/NiMH2.html These guys have the largest
cylindrical NiMH cell I've seen -- 20Ah. NiMH still doesn't parallel too
well though. I could suggest a 72v Crystalyte hub motor system and you won't
have to parallel NiMH cells.

How about Li-Ion? Thundersky has a 40Ah LFP battery!
http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164258.pdf These are relatively cheap.
18650 li-ion cells could work too.

Keep in mind a 40Ah NiMH/Li-Ion battery will actually deliver close to 40Ah
at fast discharge rates and a 40Ah Lead-acid will deliver perhaps 30.






----- Original Message -----
From: "James Drysdale" <xxx@xxx.xxx.au>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:07 AM
Subject: Ni-MH cells and Chevron


> G'day all.
>
> First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
> and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
> Secondly, I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
> bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.
>
> Some background.....
> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
> cells would be okay.
>
> What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
> Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
> of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
> would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.
>
> There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
> think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
> with my most recent data.
>
> I have been researching more.
> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
> Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?
>
> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
> Ni-MH cells....
> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>
> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
> of Ni-MH cells?
>
> FROM WEBSITE
> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
> "Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
> their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
> order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"
>
> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
> crappy bicycle?
> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
> free of restraint from Chevron?
> I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
> deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
> But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
> international order, particularly once shipping was added.
>
> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
> company that has its stakes in oil????
>
> Cheers,
> James Drysdale.
>

[EVDL List]

> Some background.....
> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
> cells would be okay.

That is a HUGE pack for a bicycle. What are you planning for 100+ mile
range?

> I have been researching more.
> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?

As I understand it, the basic technology.

> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
> Ni-MH cells....
> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>
> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
> of Ni-MH cells?

Yes, their licensing agreement specifically prohibits batteries large
enough for EVs, this is why they sued Panasonic, and won.

> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
> crappy bicycle?

Well, there is always LiIon/LiPol batteries.

> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
> free of restraint from Chevron?

Legally? No. But then the chinese tend to ignore trivial little things
like international patent/copywrite laws.


> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
> company that has its stakes in oil????

Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

[EVDL List]

Wow Dmitri, thanks I'd never seen Ni-MH of such a large capacity.
Just checking out the prices now.

The reason I had pretty much decided to go the lead-acid route was that
for the price of a Ni-MH or Li-ion 40Ah battery, I could buy a lead-acid
battery with a greater capacity for less.

Ni-MH solution
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1708&CATID=18&keywords=&SPECI AL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pag eNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=583
36v, 40Ah = $AU1800 or $US1540

Lead-acid solution
http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449

About the Ni-MH, the wholesaler wasn't really keen on discounting much,
he pretty much quoted me the "20 unit buy" price.
But still even if I got a better price, how bloody expensive is it
compared to lead!!
The lead is about a third the price AND double the capacity.
This is what I could not believe.

Anyway cheers for the data, still browsing.

See you all around,
James Drysdale.



[quote]Dmitri wrote:
> I believe it's "just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells."
> Using 600 2Ah cells will give you lots of trouble. Better to use 10Ah
> or 13Ah http://www.rabbittool.com/frames/NiMH2.html These guys have
> the largest cylindrical NiMH cell I've seen -- 20Ah. NiMH still
> doesn't parallel too well though. I could suggest a 72v Crystalyte hub
> motor system and you won't have to parallel NiMH cells.
>
> How about Li-Ion? Thundersky has a 40Ah LFP battery!
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164258.pdf These are relatively
> cheap. 18650 li-ion cells could work too.
>
> Keep in mind a 40Ah NiMH/Li-Ion battery will actually deliver close to
> 40Ah at fast discharge rates and a 40Ah Lead-acid will deliver perhaps
> 30.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Drysdale"
> <xxx@xxx.xxx.au>
> To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:07 AM
> Subject: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
>
>
>> G'day all.
>>
>> First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
>> and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
>> Secondly, I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
>> bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.
>>
>> Some background.....
>> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
>> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
>> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
>> cells would be okay.
>>
>> What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
>> Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
>> of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
>> would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.
>>
>> There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
>> think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
>> with my most recent data.
>>
>> I have been researching more.
>> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
>> Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?
>>
>> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
>> Ni-MH cells....
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>>
>> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
>> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
>> of Ni-MH cells?
>>
>> FROM WEBSITE
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>> "Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
>> their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
>> order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"
>>
>> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
>> crappy bicycle?
>> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
>> free of restraint from Chevron?
>> I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
>> deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
>> But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
>> international order, particularly once shipping was added.
>>
>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????
>>
>> Cheers,
>> James Drysdale.
>>
>

[EVDL List]

Of course you could get a lead-acid battery for much less. If weight isn't
that big of an issue, then go with lead. Of course another big down-side to
lead-acid is you can kill them fast by draining them completely and/or
letting them sit discharged.

My question is, why do you need such a huge battery for a bicycle? 36v 80Ah?


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Drysdale" <xxx@xxx.xxx.au>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron


> Wow Dmitri, thanks I'd never seen Ni-MH of such a large capacity.
> Just checking out the prices now.
>
> The reason I had pretty much decided to go the lead-acid route was that
> for the price of a Ni-MH or Li-ion 40Ah battery, I could buy a lead-acid
> battery with a greater capacity for less.
>
> Ni-MH solution
> http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1708&CATID=18&keywords=&SPECI AL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pag eNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=583
> 36v, 40Ah = $AU1800 or $US1540
>
> Lead-acid solution
> http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
> 36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449
>
> About the Ni-MH, the wholesaler wasn't really keen on discounting much,
> he pretty much quoted me the "20 unit buy" price.
> But still even if I got a better price, how bloody expensive is it
> compared to lead!!
> The lead is about a third the price AND double the capacity.
> This is what I could not believe.
>
> Anyway cheers for the data, still browsing.
>
> See you all around,
> James Drysdale.
>
>
>

[EVDL List]

> Lead-acid solution
> http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
> 36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449

Lead-Acid batteries are typically rated for the 20 hr capacity. This
battery would be 4 amps for 20 hrs (80 AH). The thing is, their capacity
drops pretty significantly when drained at the 1 to 2 hr rate. This
battery is probably only good for 50 Amps for 1 hr (50 AH)
Of course it also probably weighs around 60 lbs or so, three of these
would weigh about 180 lbs.

How big is this "crappy bicycle" you are planning on building?

--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

[EVDL List]

40ah for a bicycle? even at only 36V, that seems like an awfully large
pack.

I would think that the closest to lead acid in chargeing and balancing
is actually the lifepo4 cells. The cost is, of course, the issue.

As a test. 4-36V dewalt packs from ebay may be a good way. Take them
apart to get at the main power as the built in controller is probably
too low of amps
That would only be only 9ah by 36V but the reduced weight helps range
and they don't have problem with the amps.
In this application it might be interesting to see if the built in
controllers could work in parallel to provide an all in one soulution.
You could even have two sets of packs and have one set on charge while
the other is in use.


40AH * 36Volts of lead-acid is not really 40ah maybe 30 at low amps.
2hour instead of 20hour rate?

30ah * 36V in LiFePo4 (26650's) would be 11*13 =143 cells, and is 22lbs
raw cell weight.

[EVDL List]

[EVDL List]

[quote]Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Some background.....
>> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
>> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
>> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
>> cells would be okay.
>>
>
> That is a HUGE pack for a bicycle. What are you planning for 100+ mile
> range?
>
>
Come December, yes.
About 1600km (1000 miles), then back again.
And in the meantime my daily load will be about 145kg (320 pounds).
I do a call-out on-site tech service, all over town, and would like to
use my recumbent trike as a primary vehicle.
Need a trailer to haul my gear, and its not that light.
>> I have been researching more.
>> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
>>
>
> As I understand it, the basic technology.
>
>
>> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
>> Ni-MH cells....
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>>
>> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
>> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
>> of Ni-MH cells?
>>
>
> Yes, their licensing agreement specifically prohibits batteries large
> enough for EVs, this is why they sued Panasonic, and won.
>
>
>> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
>> crappy bicycle?
>>
>
> Well, there is always LiIon/LiPol batteries.
>
Using DeWalt 9360 36v 2.2Ah packs as a reference,
it will cost me $AU6480 ($US5546) for a 36v 40Ah pack.
There was a seller on eBay selling these packs for much cheaper, but atm
I can only find one (expensive) seller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Akku-36-0-V-2-2-Ah-Li-Ion-DeWALT-DE-9360-DE9360_W0QQitemZ280067279316QQihZ018QQcategoryZ124 423QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Also I am actually trying to save for a much bigger EV, and this won't
help.....

>
>> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
>> free of restraint from Chevron?
>>
>
> Legally? No. But then the chinese tend to ignore trivial little things
> like international patent/copywrite laws.
>
>
Hmmm, I'd hate to think what I or anyone else would have to go through
for an international order from such a company, and assuming that they
build the same type of Ni-MH, what their quality control would be.
Sorry, I am inexperienced in this area.
>
>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????
>>
>
> Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.
>
>
>
Well that is some good news.

[EVDL List]

>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????

>Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.

Anyone know when that is?

Bill