[2ndsout]

I posted this thread on the other car forum I am a member of ( www.Saturnfans.com ) I wanted to get your thoughts on this:

Disclaimer: This "letter", "blog", "Thread", etc. deemed under my screenname as a writing on this website, is my own personal opinion, and is in no way any reflection on anyone's opinion but my own. Read and discuss. Thank you.

So I have recently been doing research on Electric Cars, and the extremely "Short" rise and fall of the GM EV-1. Some of the research that I have discovered has been extremely enlightening. Almost scary. I have to sit back and ask, "What if "this" happened"; or if X had happened. How would our world as a whole be different today.

Now I am not going into a whole tirade of how I hate GM for only making the EV-1 as a lease vehicle...only in California and Arizona back in the mid 1990s. I have to ask myself; why wasn't the "Electric Vehicle" perfected in the EV-1? Why would GM squash an opportunity to make a decent amount of money on a potentially wonderful excursion in the EV-1? These questions may never be answered. Maybe someone has an answer? Who knows. All that I do know is that I am one of many who feels that with the announcement that GM is planning to release the Chevy Volt here in the next year...well; on paper: The Volt sounds like a pretty cool car. Electric car with a nice range, GM behind the car with a Chevy Logo slapped on the front of it. Everyone is going crazy for this "Electric Car"...the "Savior" of GM. Are we doomed to repeat history again? Seriously. There was a lot of hoopla when the EV-1 was manufactured, people lined up to get a lease, people enjoyed driving the EV-1 because they had fun driving around in an "Electric Car". Will the Volt see the same? My guess is that probably not. I really feel that GM is sitting on a PR nightmare. A "Pandora's Box" of Customer issues, dissatisfaction, and general mistrust in GM on the Chevy Volt. Why? Simply for the fact that the Volt has been pushed back a few times in release already, mainly due to the fact that they are working night and day to perfect the batteries. My main question is that, with the development of Lithium Ion batteries, which are NOT cheap by any stretch of the imagination...will consumers jump at the fact that Lithium Ion batteries don't have a long life and will need to be replaced? Will those that leased an EV-1 or Toyota Rav4 EV have an "Advantage" over those American Driver consumers that aren't experienced with "Electric Cars", and how to properly charge them? I am sure that there are some minds at GM that are thinking about this, but also there are American car drivers out there that will not understand the premise of plugging in a car for a period of time before it can be driven an extended distance.

Another thought on the Volt is the price. Will GM think that the Average American family with 2.5 children will REALLY be able to afford a $35-$40K "Electric Car"? While the glitz surrounding the Volt sounds extremely enticing, there are going to be alot of general car buyers that will be disappointed. Mainly for the fact of the Volt's small production number initially; and according to Bob Lutz (who is retiring from GM...how convienent) ramping up to 50 or 60K cars in the 2nd year in production....will GM be able to perfect the Volt and have it live up to people's expectations? I certainly hope so, or the Volt will be the demise of GM and Chevrolet. I don't see how GM can plan to turn themselves around on building the Volt and making a profit. There are too many "What ifs" here and GM is sitting on a PR Nightmare just waiting to happen. Some of the Volt engineers have even said that GM is pushing 2-3 years of development into the course of 1 year before the Volt hits showrooms. Is that good business?

In my own thoughts...what SHOULD have happened was this: Imagine circa 1980; either Jimmy Carter or incoming president Ronald Reagan devoted hundreds upon thousands of dollars to the big 3 to develop "Electric Cars". In a way if we had started our research and development back in 1980...by the year 2000; the technology could have been perfected. The EV-1 would have been a good pre-cursor to the development of the Electric Car and how it would handle, but would have developed out of 14-15 years of development; only to be perfected with the Volt. Now; here in 2009; we are behind the 8-Ball...GM killing off the EV-1 for a miriade of reasons, the Volt rushed into production and pushed back a number of times. Are we doomed to repeat what has already happened with the EV-1 all over again? Or will GM and Chevrolet...maybe...finally get it right? My own thoughts are that I hope that GM does it right this time around. If we had taken the steps in 1980 and the following years...2010 may be a completely different year when it comes to the debut of the Volt. Hopefully the future of Electric Cars is not doomed before they begin.

Some other articles that back up my thoughts:

Take a read on some of these articles, that back up my "Open Opinion"

http://www.hybridcars.com/plug-in-hy...olet-volt.html

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/chevy-volt-vega-redux/

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1033...-it-survive-gm

Discuss....

[rbgrn]

Did you watch "Who killed the electric car?" It was all about what happened to the EV-1.

[2ndsout]

Originally Posted by rbgrn

Did you watch "Who killed the electric car?" It was all about what happened to the EV-1.

Yes. I watched that. It's sad that the technology was there for the EV-1 and GM squashed it like a bug.

I rather like the EV-1, and it would have been nice to see one of these cars in person. It's too bad that I will only be able to see pictures, etc. of the EV-1.

It would have been a really fun car to drive and own.

[Coley]

By bringing out the Volt, GM took care of one of the main reasons for the demise of the EV-1.....

NO dealer replaceable parts needed by a gas engine...and NO oil or fuel needed that could be controlled by Big Oil.....

That is just my own opinion also, but I think it is fairly close to why EV-1 was crushed....

[coulombKid]

Originally Posted by Coley

By bringing out the Volt, GM took care of one of the main reasons for the demise of the EV-1.....

NO dealer replaceable parts needed by a gas engine...and NO oil or fuel needed that could be controlled by Big Oil.....

That is just my own opinion also, but I think it is fairly close to why EV-1 was crushed....

When
you review the facts in who killed the electric car that GM was and is infected with lazy corporate managers that never had any intention of being the car company of the future. In the early 70s I was a professional automotive technician. When you tear down and repair automobiles from all over the world you learn a lot about the corporate culture that is responsible for most automotive vehicular nightmares. All domestic vehicles were always over-weight, consumed too much fuel, had smog systems 5-years behind the times, and had styling representing corporate managers that had too much power, no taste, and NEVER listened to customer wishes. Enter the US government. They opened the flood gates to foreign imports because the Detroit fat-cats just wouldn't stop ripping off the US consumer.
I realized the US automobile companies were toast based on entrenched corporate attitude in 1979 and hung up my torque wrench as a profession for good.
After 1982 I experienced that attitude again as engineer involved in product development. In the 80s US companies would routinely crank out products after, at most, two prototype cycles. Over seas (except china these days) they get it right BEFORE shipment most of the time. After a decade in engineering I hung up the CAD terminal because 99% of the engineering/marketing decisions are made by fourth quarter nickel clickers that were going to hit the golden silk well before anybody catches a whiff of the Madoff/AIG MO. I saw a EV1 back when they were on the road and would have bought one if GM would have allowed it. To crush them was an act of environmental terrorism. Its quite evident that numerous government officals both state and federal got bought out at the time. We need to change the laws so that there is no statute of limitations with respect to this type of graft where the earth and the consumer is getting ripped off. We need to make it possible for an old man on his death bed to turn states evidence and make it stick. The current clowns in detroit need to be fired en-mass. You will never see a Volt on the street.

[Coley]

I also hung up my tools from working for GM, Ford and AMC in the '70s.

I had a restoration business for some 20 years and then dropped that to do some prototype work for a Ford supplier.

The production changes that they required on a part, that would only ever be seen by the factory workers as they installed them, were foolish.

It seems they had to spend all of the alotted R&D money, or else.

A friend that was consulted on the new Mustang at the time, was rebuffed when he suggested that the current rear ends that Ford made were fine, but they had to design a new one because of the R&D money once again.

The new design was poorly made and had lot of replacements.

Now, I just reproduce antique auto parts and other metal castings.

The car industry in this country is still making the same design mistakes that they made 40 years ago.....or are they mistakes?

[piersdad]

Imagine circa 1980; either Jimmy Carter or incoming president Ronald Reagan devoted hundreds upon thousands of dollars to the big 3 to develop "Electric Cars". In a way if we had started our research and development back in 1980..

i was manufacturing evs in 1980 and pressed to find some way to lease the batteries.
that way the battery companies would find the best long life battery for the lease and would encourage development in batteries.
also the customer would be pay as use the battery.

most of my evs that i sold died as their batteries died as the customer did not want to pay out megabucks for a new one.

It seems they had to spend all of the alotted R&D money, or else.

how many time do you see 3 million dollars and 3 years development quoted.
for a project that with a couple of decent engineers could take 3 months if that
yes i say and the bosses new luxury boat and car included in the 3 million bucks.

the latest ford and some others cars are forgetting the rule of golden number
1.6 to 1
they are getting so low and sleek that most of the panels are 2 to 1 ratio and look @#$ ugly if an unbroken panel has to be that size then it has to be broken up with some thing or decoration to stop it from being ugly

[Coley]

For WW2, they made changeovers to completely different machines, such as airplanes, cannons and tanks.

The change in production was fast, compared to today.

The $40,000. for a volt is hard to justify.
An all electric Volt could be made could be manufactured at a much lower cost.

The new Camaro is priced at $30,000. An EV Camaro could be $20,000.
and still profitable.

[piersdad]

one of the problems is contracts
to take a camaro from the production line and put an electric motor in it means they have to still buy the petrol motor under contract until the suppliers contract ends.
so what do you do with a 1000 spare motors and exhausts and radiators
so if you delete the motors etc you have to put an order for a huge number of batteries and electric motors you have to guarantee you can sell them
i found this out in 1980 when we tried to make electric cars.
with mass production and cheap parts you have to order 10000 or more to make the mass production viable.

its a chicken and the egg situation
1000,000 cars ordered before they are cheap enough for an average motorist can buy one.

http://www.evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=1990

[ftaffy]

I work for a defence contractor (not in the states) but with a recent conversation about the difference between what we do and what they do in the states the answer he gave was money. They have a problem they just keep pumping money into it until it goes away, simple because they had that money to spend.

I (probably not the normal household consumer though) would probably pay the $40K for a Volt, i like it more then imiev which will be in a similar ball park.
The +20K to the Tesla S is a big jump... We are heading into serious sports car regions of money.