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  #1  
Old 08-07-2012, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

"...or they are trying to cover the problem."
Ya think?



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  #2  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

[quote]brucedp5 wrote:
> Drozd now adds his name to a list of Leaf owners claiming, in some cases,
> 30-50 percent charge holding capacity loss for their still relatively new
> cars.

The Leaf is Nissan's first EV in over 10 years, and was apparently
rushed to market. It should not be surprising if they got a few of the
technological details wrong, and so have a few bugs to work out. That's
the nature of trying a new approach.

The big question is whether Nissan will take care of their customers
under warranty, or seek to quietly backpedal out of it.

If the Leafs indeed have early battery failures, and Nissan fails to
cover them under warranty, then EV hobbyists may have a new opportunity
to pick up professionally designed EVs cheap. "Must sell... needs
batteries." :-)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs xxx@xxx.xxx

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  #3  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

Good points, but there's no backing out of it quietly.

Just like the Roadster bricking issues, if it really is an isolated issue
they would be much better off just replacing a few battery packs than
letting it build till it hits mainstream media. If they cling to the
warranty fine print, which Jack R said applies to battery failure, not
capacity loss, they'll only hurt their reputation and risk destroying this
new market entirely.



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  #4  
Old 08-07-2012, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

Big Oil couldn't have planned it better.


[quote] Voltswagon <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> Good points, but there's no backing out of it quietly.
>
> Just like the Roadster bricking issues, if it really is an isolated issue
> they would be much better off just replacing a few battery packs than
> letting it build till it hits mainstream media. If they cling to the
> warranty fine print, which Jack R said applies to battery failure, not
> capacity loss, they'll only hurt their reputation and risk destroying this
> new market entirely.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-An-Early-Autumn-For-A-Texas-Leaf-Pack-tp4657003p4657011.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

[quote]On 7 Aug 2012 at 10:55, Lee Hart wrote:

> If the Leafs indeed have early battery failures, and Nissan fails to cover
> them under warranty, then EV hobbyists may have a new opportunity to pick
> up professionally designed EVs cheap.

Unfortunately, that would also do some pretty serious damage to the public
(non-hobbyist) perception of EVs. It might even hurt Nissan's overall
image, affecting its sales of ICEVs.

Thus it would be in their best interest to swallow the cost and make the
cars right. IIRC, Honda quietly replaced many of the original Insights'
batteries when they failed prematurely. If Nissan wants to compete on that
playing field, they'll have to do likewise.

BTW, anyone know why Nissan went for LiCo instead of NiFePO4?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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  #6  
Old 08-07-2012, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

I am pretty sure the LEAFs use LiNiMnO2. The heat sensitivity of this
chemistry is my bet on for the explanation of the failures, but I may
be jumping the gun there. Nissan would certainly agree that until the
engineering investigation of the capacity issue is concluded, it may
be that these cases are a result of defects in specific cells or
series of cells that made them more susceptible to heat. In each of
the cases I've read, these were daily drivers and use a substantial
percentage of capacity to complete the commute, so that is a factor,
as well.

For what it's worth, I agree that it is important that Nissan go
beyond the terms of their warranty to address the consumer concerns.

Beyond that, I hope that they aren't too tightly wedded to this
chemistry. The next model year is supposed to get a boost in range,
but it isn't clear how much of that is due to a tweak to the cell
design (chemistry/separators/etc) or if it is more due to relaxing the
software limitations of their BMS to use more of the available
capacity.

[quote] EVDL Administrator <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2012 at 10:55, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> If the Leafs indeed have early battery failures, and Nissan fails to cover
>> them under warranty, then EV hobbyists may have a new opportunity to pick
>> up professionally designed EVs cheap.
>
> Unfortunately, that would also do some pretty serious damage to the public
> (non-hobbyist) perception of EVs. It might even hurt Nissan's overall
> image, affecting its sales of ICEVs.
>
> Thus it would be in their best interest to swallow the cost and make the
> cars right. IIRC, Honda quietly replaced many of the original Insights'
> batteries when they failed prematurely. If Nissan wants to compete on that
> playing field, they'll have to do likewise.
>
> BTW, anyone know why Nissan went for LiCo instead of NiFePO4?
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2012, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

[quote] Lee Hart wrote:

> If the Leafs indeed have early battery failures, and Nissan fails to
> cover them under warranty, then EV hobbyists may have a new opportunity
> to pick up professionally designed EVs cheap. "Must sell... needs
> batteries." :-)

My initial and tentative plan for our Leaf was to wear out the battery
in 5-10 years and then replace it with a bigger and presumed
cheaper second source battery. It looks like I don't have five+ years
to wait for second sources to develop. My battery is near 20% down in
18k miles and 14 months. My hope is that Nissan will choose to remain
in the EV business which means they will do the right thing on fixing
current batteries.

My guess is that the selection of LiMn chemistry was just a HORRIBLE
mistake Nissan made.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 21 days 1 hours 31 minutes

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  #8  
Old 08-07-2012, 05:35 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

Let's see... They used a heat-sensitive battery chemistry and skimped on
cooling. Does that make any sense? It's spelled LiFePO4. Didn't they
get the memo?

[quote] Willie McKemie <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 10:55:29AM -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > If the Leafs indeed have early battery failures, and Nissan fails to
> > cover them under warranty, then EV hobbyists may have a new opportunity
> > to pick up professionally designed EVs cheap. "Must sell... needs
> > batteries." :-)
>
> My initial and tentative plan for our Leaf was to wear out the battery
> in 5-10 years and then replace it with a bigger and presumed
> cheaper second source battery. It looks like I don't have five+ years
> to wait for second sources to develop. My battery is near 20% down in
> 18k miles and 14 months. My hope is that Nissan will choose to remain
> in the EV business which means they will do the right thing on fixing
> current batteries.
>
> My guess is that the selection of LiMn chemistry was just a HORRIBLE
> mistake Nissan made.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 21 days 1 hours 31 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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  #9  
Old 08-08-2012, 03:12 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

I'm sorry but you are talking nonsense. And as for your next post, you appear to think that the energy required to keep a modern mobile phone's processor and at least 3 transceivers going for a week comes out of thin air?

There is plenty of evidence from Leaf owners that it can - under no-extreme circumstances - do considerably more than 70 miles to a charge. Yes, there is an issue, IMO, with Nissan's decision not to put thermal management on the Leafs pack and one they need to address quickly and definitively rather than fanny about but for most 'normal' environments it is still a very capable production EV.

Making such seeping comments as "LiON has no staying power" without (plainly) having had any personal experience is just very silly.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

[quote] anthony c wrote:

> LiON has no staying power...look at cell phone batteries...NiMH, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?
>
> --- On Tue, 8/7/12, brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> From: brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack
>> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
>> Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2012, 5:28 AM
>>
>> Real-Leaf Experiences ...
>>
>> [unformatted]
>> http://www.hybridcars.com/news/early-autumn-nissan-leaf-owner-texas-49026.html
>> [image] An Early Autumn For A Nissan Leaf Owner In Texas
>> By Jeff Cobb Jul 26 2012
>>


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  #10  
Old 08-08-2012, 08:45 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: An Early Autumn For A Texas Leaf Pack

[quote]On 7 Aug 2012 at 15:50, anthony c wrote:

> NiMH...it WORKS...moves my landlording supplies all over, I charge at
> my rentals....

Right. NiMH is a stable, reliable battery with respectable specific energy
and power, and proven long life.

But we can't have it. Big oil owns it and holds it hostage.

As I understand it, only one company (Gold Peak) holds a valid license for
manufacturing EV size NiMH modules legally. That means zero competition,
which means no mere mortal can afford NiMH batteries - if GP even deign to
make a few for us.

NiCd is nearly as good as NiMH, but it's out of fashion. It's also been
decreed too hazardous by the EU, thanks mainly to the carelessness of
homeowners who chuck NiCd-fitted gadgets in the trash (and narrow-minded
legislators).

So, for the present, NiMH effectively doesn't exist. We may as well write
it off. Lead and lithium remain the only games in town for road EVs.
Fortunately, though, it appears that LiFePO4 continues to evolve rapidly.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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