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  #11  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:39 PM
jeremyjs jeremyjs is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjfreeman View Post
the hydrogen used for PEM cells in Home power plants, do use reforming, of natural gas.
The Hydogen for supplying autos, in Calif, and west coast is done by electrolysis and stored locally to the generation point.
the Further north you go on the West coast the more Hydro power, and now Wind power is used for the electrolysis.

The Biggest electrolysis Hydrogen plants are in BC. The supply the Fuel cell Bus Fleet.
And they waste 3/4 or more, likely more, of the power they produce using it to make hydrogen.
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: water powered ev???

I find it interesting the most have missed the reason for going hydrogen, is environment.
How do you fold those costs into your calculations.
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:01 PM
jeremyjs jeremyjs is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

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Originally Posted by bjfreeman View Post
I find it interesting the most have missed the reason for going hydrogen, is environment.
How do you fold those costs into your calculations.

If you are throwing away 3/4+ of the electricity you need 4x more solar, wind, hydro, etc. to make it work than just putting the energy into batteries. So I'd say it's much worse for the environment than batteries. So you're taking an source of electricity that's already expensive and making it's capitol costs 4x higher. Not even mentioning the costs or inefficiencies of the Fuel Cells; which when compared to batteries are pretty bad.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: water powered ev???

I don't argue Hydrogen again battery only.
Batteries, currently KW/KG against range is limited.
a 1000 AH cell is 97lbs.
when you multiply that for 765 Volts, used by commercial EV, you looking at 87 tons. not to mention the space. you floorboard would be 3 feet thick.
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Last edited by bjfreeman; 06-28-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:57 PM
jeremyjs jeremyjs is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

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Originally Posted by bjfreeman View Post
I don't argue Hydrogen again battery only.
Batteries, currently KW/KG against range is limited.
a 1000 AH cell is 97lbs.
when you multiply that for 765 Volts, used by commercial EV, you looking at 87 tons. not to mention the space. you floorboard would be 3 feet thick.
Why would you need 1000 ah at 765 volts? That's 3/4 of a MW/h. What do you want to do drive 1000 miles on a charge?

And I hate to tell you this, but the energy density of Hydrogen after you run it through a fuel cell isn't much better than batteries by volume when you include all of the support equipment to carry and move it around at pressure.

Last edited by jeremyjs; 06-28-2012 at 05:42 PM. Reason: refining response
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  #16  
Old 06-28-2012, 05:35 PM
SandRailEV SandRailEV is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

The bottom line here is that Hydrogen is not now nor will it ever be a viable source of fuel for road vehicles. It's not a matter of opinion really, the laws of physics will not allow portable storage of enough Hydrogen to drive a car very far. You can throw all the money in the world at it but it still won't be viable.

Further, Hydrogen production takes boat-loads of energy, more than what it returns... Again, the laws of physics... Argue it all you want, it will never work...


Also, the fuel cell car is still not a water powered car...
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: water powered ev???

reminds me of a Ostrich with it's head in the ground.
There ARE fleet Buses running on Hydrogen PEM cells.
There are Cars running on Hydrogen PEM cells with Refueling points.

How does you law of physics account for those?
How does that match that it won't work?
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  #18  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:05 PM
SandRailEV SandRailEV is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

I am not saying that Hydrogen can't make a car go forward, I am saying that Hydrogen as a fuel for passengers will never be cost-effective due to the physical properties of Hydrogen.

Do the math from beginning to end. If you're still a believer, well, ok...
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  #19  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: water powered ev???

you can say the same for EV with muliti-million $ loans to Tesla and Fisker.
Not to mention the Gov subsidies to the Japanese versions.
if you start from Batteries Technologies, and production.
Be sure to factor in the environmental cost as well.

The fact some Fuel Cell vehicles are running now, says there are ways to make it work, and with electrolysis, method of generation is envirormentaly better.
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  #20  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:41 PM
jeremyjs jeremyjs is offline
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Default Re: water powered ev???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjfreeman View Post
you can say the same for EV with muliti-million $ loans to Tesla and Fisker.
Not to mention the Gov subsidies to the Japanese versions.
if you start from Batteries Technologies, and production.
Be sure to factor in the environmental cost as well.

The fact some Fuel Cell vehicles are running now, says there are ways to make it work, and with electrolysis, method of generation is envirormentaly better.
Batteries are getting steadily better and cheaper. Hydrogen is not and due to it's inherent properties can't and won't, but it doesn't matter. The batteries are already better.

I'm done.
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