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View Poll Results: Would you pay 10000$ for a DIY kit to make your car Hybrid ?
YES 11 16.18%
NO 57 83.82%
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  #21  
Old 09-25-2008, 06:46 PM
Technologic Technologic is offline
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Default Re: Is the soup worth the cabbage ?

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Originally Posted by WheelMotor View Post
Hi Tech,
Is the skin effect in the CCAW sufficient at the low frequency of only a few 100 Hz to justify its use ?
well copper clading offers a few benefits to just straight aluminum. Aluminum oxide will build up at terminals/any air exposure unless it's clad. The reason this is bad is aluminum oxide is actually electrically insulative (... actually besides diamond it's the most electrically insulative material on earth).

It's worth it in the long run but there are a number of ways to terminate aluminum wire safely without risk.

If you can find a cheaply priced CCAW flat wire I'd use it though... it's also quite a bit more conductive per cross section than just straight aluminum (10% more to be precise).
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  #22  
Old 09-25-2008, 06:46 PM
daveinsingapore daveinsingapore is offline
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Default Re: Time is money

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Originally Posted by WheelMotor View Post
High Samborambo,

Happy with your contribution in this discussion !

The reason I did not shared openly my progression is that I felt no input (only scepticism ) from the other members at first. Second point is that I have no ambition to teach, I want to do business. Therefore I want an approach inspired by practicality.

So far:
Thanks for the tip about Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor. I am 52 and my knowledge of electronics is getting a bit rusty.
I 'rang' the Distributor of Infineon in Brussels where I asked them for this "six pack". They said they did not 'carry stock of' this item because of infrequent demand, but they should investigate. They could/would not give a price.
However, I was not anticipating 300V. Normal should be 8 x 12 volt = 96 v. If we start with 8 V Trojans of 2 banks in parallel ... it gets bulky to get to even 150V......
.....For the wiring I was indeed intending to use aluminium, because as I see it now, unsprung weight is the (only?) possible hurdle to success.

For what is considered the total construction of the wheel motor, I gave up on the idea to put the magnets in the rim and use the brake caliper to hold the rest of the engine. Because of the huge forces that the magnets will apply to the stator of the engine, it will be very difficult to change a tire + rim by the side of the road in case of a flat. The magnets can be destroyed if they smash in to the stator. Also the aluminium rim can flex a few mm and the airgap must be to big. Better to have the assembly under control in the factory.
An other possibility is a custom made 2 piece rim.

A 36 finger stator ??? Have you measured the dimension of 1 coil with a 3 mm thick wire? and the brake caliper?

I don't want to go open source anymore. Because the feedback in this forum is to theoretical and to far from practical reality.

However Samborambo I will PM you about how we could cooperate.

Please let this thread be only dedicated to commercial contacting and brainstorming.
Hi WheelMotor...I am Dave here in Singapore, have been following your discussion with Samborambo - a fellow countryman of mine and Tech about a wheel motor design.

I am an Designer/Engineer/Architect working out of Singapore and have been looking and documenting the possibilities for this type of project for a while now. Lets set some parameters. Lets us not use last years technology so please dismiss the idea of using lead acid batteries...infact for this part of the design process, forget about what batteries are used but lets get out of the low voltage design..not less than 144 volts and look upwards to even 288v even higher, at this stage let us not restrict ourselves by mere battery voltage.
As for the physical layout of the wheelmotor....is does not have a disc brake, so why even mention it. And it will have a alloy dismountable wheel, just like modern cars have, not a wheel that is the rotor, so there will be no removal of the rotor to change a tire.
Using really good magnets is a must, nothing but neodymium, like Samborambo said it is a must, must ok...as for assembly of the finished rotor onto the stator, that would be a once only factory thing, never to be dissasembled on the side of the road to change anything, and with all wiring accessable from the rear of the stator which would be fixed to the existing hubs of the vehicle.
And your reference to fixing the engine to the brake caliper does not make sense - it is not a engine, it is an electric motor and there are no brake calipers, Regenerative Braking will be employed thru out and there will be no flex of the outer rotor against the inner stator because the circular construction of the rotor is stronger than you think.

Any way I am going back to my day job and will catch up with you all later...I will be up Egypt way later this month, perhaps we could see each other Wheelmotor....gee I like my job...lol free travel to exotic places with sunbaked beaches with cool drinks in the shade......nah make that hot deserts....with warm canned drinks under a hot hot sun.....lol
ciao for now..

Last edited by daveinsingapore; 09-25-2008 at 06:50 PM.
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  #23  
Old 09-25-2008, 11:23 PM
GLEVP GLEVP is offline
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Default Re: In Wheel Motor ... affordable



And for under $1500 each. Including controller.
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  #24  
Old 09-26-2008, 12:11 AM
daveinsingapore daveinsingapore is offline
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Default Re: In Wheel Motor ... affordable

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And for under $1500 each. Including controller.
hey thanks for the link, but after seeing other things come out of china..here in singapore, that are supposed to be high tech...I doubt I want to be buying something that looks like that....there appears to be too much weight hanging outside the original flange depth of the hub...I have seen inside chinese DC automotive motors here in singapore and they are not that pretty, their controllers are pretty basic too...understand this...China is going EV crazy...but not in a high tech way...no thanks...even for the price of $1500, besides it takes all the fun out of learning an doing for one's self....
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  #25  
Old 09-26-2008, 02:03 AM
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samborambo samborambo is offline
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Default Re: Time is money

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinsingapore View Post
Hi WheelMotor...I am Dave here in Singapore, have been following your discussion with Samborambo - a fellow countryman of mine and Tech about a wheel motor design.

I am an Designer/Engineer/Architect working out of Singapore and have been looking and documenting the possibilities for this type of project for a while now. Lets set some parameters. Lets us not use last years technology so please dismiss the idea of using lead acid batteries...infact for this part of the design process, forget about what batteries are used but lets get out of the low voltage design..not less than 144 volts and look upwards to even 288v even higher, at this stage let us not restrict ourselves by mere battery voltage.
Like Dave said, LA cells should be off the radar completely. They COST you a lot more money in the long run compared to LiFePo4. As for voltage, for a BLDC motor with no gearing, the design needs a wide dynamic range of voltage to deliver enough torque at all speeds. I think you do have to take a stab at some point and decide on a working voltage. You can build a voltage boosting stage into your controllers but that's extra silicon in the current path = less efficiency and more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinsingapore View Post
As for the physical layout of the wheelmotor....is does not have a disc brake, so why even mention it. And it will have a alloy dismountable wheel, just like modern cars have, not a wheel that is the rotor, so there will be no removal of the rotor to change a tire.

Using really good magnets is a must, nothing but neodymium, like Samborambo said it is a must, must ok...as for assembly of the finished rotor onto the stator, that would be a once only factory thing, never to be dissasembled on the side of the road to change anything, and with all wiring accessable from the rear of the stator which would be fixed to the existing hubs of the vehicle.
And your reference to fixing the engine to the brake caliper does not make sense - it is not a engine, it is an electric motor and there are no brake calipers, regenerative braking will be employed thru out and there will be no flex of the outer rotor against the inner stator because the circular construction of the rotor is stronger than you think.
So is this for a design of a new car or existing / retrofit? Sorry if I'm a bit behind but that would be a deciding whether or not you retain the original brakes, etc for a retrofit or you redesign from scratch with a motor capable of meeting the braking needs.

A BLDC motor capable of emergency braking may be a tall order - certainly more than the torque requirements for acceleration. Do the math and you'll find you're trying to dissipate around 500kJ of energy for 100-0km/h - in how much time? You've also got the issue of whether or not you'd get certification for electromagnetic (non-friction) braking. Disk/drum brakes do their job very well.

I agree about the problem of mounting the rotor to the rims. Maybe a pressed steel plate that fits over the studs between the hub and the rim to hold the rotor?

Wheelmotor, I don't know what the feelings are of others here but if you're considering a closed/proprietary design, I'm not interested in helping. The purpose of this forum is to encourage individuals to share ideas and experience. If you're going to take the work that people here put into design, brainstorming, etc and produce a proprietary product to turn a profit, I think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone here prepared to put time in just to help you.

This guy has made some great work towards designing a radial flux hub motor using FEMM - similar to what has been described here but including a second inner rotor for greater torque density:

http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/

He's open sourced the FEMM models here:

http://motorfemmulator.svn.sourcefor...ator/Magnetic/

He's been working ot it for about nine months but it seems that his blog stopped a few weeks ago as he's going back to study electrotech. He's based in Portugal from what I can gather.

I'm keen to pick up on his work but his models require FEMM 4.2 which is known not to work with Linux / Wine (I've been using FEMM 4.0). I'll have to bust out vmware with a full windows install and just work veeeeeery slooooooowly.

I've seen those chinese wheel motors listed on Alibaba too. I dismissed them also due to a lack of specs / info and no response from several manufacturers. I can understand Dave's sentiments about the Chinese EV industry - I was suspicious of the same but couldn't confirm it.
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  #26  
Old 09-26-2008, 02:04 AM
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WheelMotor WheelMotor is offline
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Exclamation Non technical problems

I agree with you Dave about the construction of the WM as a closed unit for many obvious reasons.

At this moment I am only blocked for legal reasons. We came also to the conclusion that letting the brake (disk or drum) in place will be impossible. Bolting the WM just beside the brake drum like GLEVP suggests here in the picture is ehum ... not acceptable. So our initial approach was to built the WM around the brake. This will not go because of heat and dust produced by the brakes.

This has provoked a big legal obstacle for commercializing the WM. I don't see me suggesting a client to remove the brakes from his car (not even on 1 axle) and rely on Regenerative Braking only. In Belgium it's out of the question. People can not change anything on their car because the insurance will not cover you, in case of an accident, if your car is not conform the original and they can prove that there might be a link between the alteration and the accident. Like in the case they find out you removed the disc brakes from your car and replaced them by some novel electric stuff. I actually never hoped to commercialize in Europe from the start. In the US it could go, but the legal consequences must be considered.
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  #27  
Old 09-26-2008, 03:25 AM
daveinsingapore daveinsingapore is offline
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Default Re: Non technical problems

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Originally Posted by WheelMotor View Post
I agree with you Dave about the construction of the WM as a closed unit for many obvious reasons.

At this moment I am only blocked for legal reasons. We came also to the conclusion that letting the brake (disk or drum) in place will be impossible. Bolting the WM just beside the brake drum like GLEVP suggests here in the picture is ehum ... not acceptable. So our initial approach was to built the WM around the brake. This will not go because of heat and dust produced by the brakes.

This has provoked a big legal obstacle for commercializing the WM. I don't see me suggesting a client to remove the brakes from his car (not even on 1 axle) and rely on Regenerative Braking only. In Belgium it's out of the question. People can not change anything on their car because the insurance will not cover you, in case of an accident, if your car is not conform the original and they can prove that there might be a link between the alteration and the accident. Like in the case they find out you removed the disc brakes from your car and replaced them by some novel electric stuff. I actually never hoped to commercialize in Europe from the start. In the US it could go, but the legal consequences must be considered.

Hey Guy...that is your name right...WM...(hehehe)..saw your posting on MyOwnHybrid....I understand your situation in Belgium, the same in Singapore here....must be original or no insurance, where as in NZ and OZ and the States....certification of a modified vehicle will be accepted, and EV's and Regenerative Braking are not novel...and we are not making 'novelty' electric car thingys.
Remember Tesla made electric cars over a hundred years ago in Europe and we are just heading back there are being over powered by the Oil magnates and the ICE's for the past 100 years.... Any way if we have to give these motors friction brakes that work, and if you want to retain the original stub axle on the front suspension then we have to look at locating the stator assembly behind the disc brake assembly and make the rotor out of ceramics so that heat does not bother the magnets and make the stator and rotor really narrow..and see if that works. A similar set up could be designed for a fixed rear axle for a rear wheel drive vehicle or fixed around the stubs of rear wheels for a front wheel driven vehicle...if you want to keep the brakes, then work around them.
For me personally - I am going to figure how to reuse the BEMF from those motors without throwing out all that wasted energy, I would rather go with regenerative brakes then play with friction brakes...
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  #28  
Old 09-26-2008, 03:38 AM
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WheelMotor WheelMotor is offline
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Question every day brings new questions

Sambo,

I want to target the retrofit market.

Sorry, I have my bad days too. (about the OS aproach) Will be good boy and share.

Batteries are actually not my concern. I want to concentrate only on the WM.

As far as Vasco of MyOwnHybrid's blog is concerned. He too suggests that "the mechanical brakes will not function except for parking". Because he also wants to encapsulate the drum brake inside the WM.

Our ruff calculations show that we don't need to worry about Torque. Because of the big Torque Arm of the radial constructed WM and the nature of the BLDC motor, Torque will be plenty.

So in the last days my attention has shifted from the electromechanical problems to the following :

1) How to shield the motor from Ferromagnetic debris that could lay on the road and the ferromagnetic dust that is produced by the brakes?

2) How to make the WM adaptable to all kind of vehicles with disc and drum brakes ?

3) Can a company legally commercialize a product that suggests that you remove the original friction brakes from your car ?

4) If we start from a blank sheet WM/brake construction what do we do with the excess electric power generated by heavy Regenerative Braking? Like Guy mentions here: http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/200.../motor-design/ This could implicate that we have to waste that energy because we get "to much to fast" .

5) How to get rid of the heat that the friction brakes generate inside the WM, in case we still consider (for legal reasons) to build the WM around the brake ?
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  #29  
Old 09-26-2008, 03:45 AM
daveinsingapore daveinsingapore is offline
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Default Re: every day brings new questions

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Originally Posted by WheelMotor View Post
Sambo,

I want to target the retrofit market.

Sorry, I have my bad days too. (about the OS aproach) Will be good boy and share.

Batteries are actually not my concern. I want to concentrate only on the WM.

As far as Vasco of MyOwnHybrid's blog is concerned. He too suggests that "the mechanical brakes will not function except for parking". Because he also wants to encapsulate the drum brake inside the WM.

Our ruff calculations show that we don't need to worry about Torque. Because of the big Torque Arm of the radial constructed WM and the nature of the BLDC motor, Torque will be plenty.

So in the last days my attention has shifted from the electromechanical problems to the following :

1) How to shield the motor from Ferromagnetic debris that could lay on the road and the ferromagnetic dust that is produced by the brakes?

2) How to make the WM adaptable to all kind of vehicles with disc and drum brakes ?

3) Can a company legally commercialize a product that suggests that you remove the original friction brakes from your car ?

4) If we start from a blank sheet WM/brake construction what do we do with the excess electric power generated by heavy regenerative braking? Like Guy mentions here: http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/200.../motor-design/ This could implicate that we have to waste that energy because we get "to much to fast" .

5) How to get rid of the heat that the friction brakes generate inside the WM, in case we still consider (for legal reasons) to build the WM around the brake ?

lol oh you have been naughty boy Guy...but we will forgive you.....eventually...mean while have fun with your WM around the rear axle of a vehicle that only uses it parking brakes....cause that is what MyOwnHybrid has set out to do, as for the BEMF....why not charge batteries with it....that is what it is good for...duh....
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  #30  
Old 09-26-2008, 07:44 AM
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WheelMotor WheelMotor is offline
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Lightbulb duh ... ?

If you want to rely on your WM for Regen Braking in case of an emergency stop, you will need to absorb (charge) like 200 (and more) Amps / sec. If you want to push 2 or 300 amps in your battery you will need big Voltage at very high load to get that in your battery. I have no idea how that will go in real live (how the WM will perform as a generator) or how the battery will survive that mistreatment.

It is not a coincident that GM is looking for Ultra Caps to put in the new Volt in order to blitz charge the Regenerative Braking power away in a matter of seconds !

Unfortunately they are very expensive at the moment and that's the prob Dave !

You can read it here:http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05...-next-gen-e-f/

See animation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk7xbcnzxks

http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/200...n/#comment-283
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