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  #1  
Old 07-20-2012, 04:38 PM
Zak650 Zak650 is offline
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Default ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

This thread is about combining the new Calb CA100 cells in parallel with A123 20ah pouch cells within a battery pack. This adds both surge and long term capacity and changes the discharge curve to a more gradual slope with less fluctuations.

The test and graphs are of one Calb CA100 cell and A123 cells and produced with the Powerlab8. Discharge rate:10 amps.

CA100 cell alone stopped at 3.1 volts below:



CA100 cell + 2 x A123 cells stopped at 3.05 volts below:



CA100 cell + 4 x A123 cell stopped at 3.05 volts below:


Last edited by Zak650; 07-22-2012 at 05:00 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2012, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

I think you need to try some high discharge testing to really prove if it's a worthwhile combo. If possible you should measure the current between the cells in parallel to see what kind of "recharge" currents are moving from the calb to the A123 pack if the A123 has just taken the brunt of a high current discharge.
I'd be curious to see a 500-1000A test though to see if there is real benefit.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:02 AM
Zak650 Zak650 is offline
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

I don't really have a means of testing this but both battery pack loops will connect in parallel to the controller input so thay can't help but add to each other. I'm especially pleased with the change in shape of the output curve. I'm running a CA100 + 2 x A123 test now and will add it when it finishes.

Last edited by Zak650; 07-21-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak650 View Post
I don't really have a means of testing this but both battery pack loops will connect in parallel to the controller input so thay can't help but add to each other. I'm especially pleased with the change in shape of the output curve. I'm running a CA100 + 2 x A123 test now and will add it when it finishes.
If your results look good this could become a good compromise by adding say one or two A123 cell to a 60Ah Calb cell you would have a nice pack (based on my goals)
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:05 AM
Zak650 Zak650 is offline
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

In my Superbeetle I've got 32 CA100 cells, 16 on each side, from under the front seats straight back to the original battery well. One in front, two rows of 5 on their short sides, and the last row vertical in the well area. All as low as they can possibly be, it should handle like it's been converted to a mid engine. 64 A123s in the spare tire well in front. Maybe 64 more A123s somewhere else.

Last edited by Zak650; 07-21-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

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Originally Posted by Zak650 View Post
In my Superbeetle I've got 32 CA100 cells, 16 on each side, from under the front seats straight back to the original battery well. One in front, two rows of 5 on their short sides, and the last row vertical in the well area. All as low as they can possibly be, it should handle like it's been converted to a mid engine. 64 A123s in the spare tire well in front. Maybe 64 more A123s somewhere else.
After completeing many differant Li-ion configurations since 2004 in conversions I have the following comment, DONT DO IT. The results will be uncertain and a disaster. Been there and done it. You probably wont take my advise, do it and destroy the batteries.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:22 AM
Zak650 Zak650 is offline
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

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Originally Posted by ev-converter View Post
After completeing many differant Li-ion configurations since 2004 in conversions I have the following comment, DONT DO IT. The results will be uncertain and a disaster. Been there and done it. You probably wont take my advise, do it and destroy the batteries.
Don't do what, where, what are you refering to, you have to be more specific if you are going to give advice. Otherwise there is nothing in particular for me to reconsider. If it is vertical versus horizintal, all but 4 could be positioned vertically. Or are you talking about mixing Calb and A123 cells?

Last edited by Zak650; 07-21-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

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Originally Posted by Zak650 View Post
I don't really have a means of testing this but both battery pack loops will connect in parallel to the controller input so thay can't help but add to each other.
Sounds fun! I'm doing a similar experiment, but with lead and lithium http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74502

Ideally for this project you would have two JLD404s or other AH counters, one on each branch so you can see how the load sharing works while under full acceleration, and then how the equalizing works while cruising/stopped.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:52 PM
Zak650 Zak650 is offline
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

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Originally Posted by Ziggythewiz View Post
Sounds fun! I'm doing a similar experiment, but with lead and lithium http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74502

Ideally for this project you would have two JLD404s or other AH counters, one on each branch so you can see how the load sharing works while under full acceleration, and then how the equalizing works while cruising/stopped.
Interesting, I wonder if you could use the Lee Hart balancer to do the same thing? Or maybe just a simple ampmeter to see which pack is feeding which? I prefer keeping things as simple as possible though and figure buss bars or straight connections will keep things in balance

Last edited by Zak650; 07-21-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: ZakPak Calb_CA+A123 cell group, curing the cliff

I'm not sure how the balancer would tell you anything, other than if they're in balance (they won't be while driving). A simple ammeter, if it can handle large negatives, could tell you how much is flowing where, but it is much more useful to know how much flowed in total, over time.

You have to have an AH counter to run a lithium pack anyway, but two would make more sense for your setup. What do you have planned?

Oh, and another question...what are you using the rear shelf space for? And are you keeping the back seat in?
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