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Old 04-25-2008, 05:13 PM
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Wink The new world order (LiFePo4)

Check this out.

http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm

It looks like lithium ion batteries that are affordable are finally here. And this is only retail pricing!!!!

Hey KiwiEV, what do ya say? think your "unspent gas money" could make your next pack lithium?

I'm feeling better everyday with this technology. Pretty much sold on going this route with my car.
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

Yes yes and yes. I am 95% certain my next car will be running on Lithium. I think by the time the Tredia rusts itself beyond repair (I give it 2 years max) I'll be ready for KiwiEV2.
Imagine just how much they'll have fallen in price in 2 years too...

Ahhh, daydreaming mode...
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

so, 100Ah for a 3.2V cell, thats 320Wh, at 200 bucks, comes out to about 63.5 cents a Wh. Not bad.

But proven? balancing available? what about a charger?

I see they mention monitoring, but nothing else.

I'll wait until it falls below 50 cents a Wh and offers 50Ah batteries. I don't need 100 or 200 for a motorcycle.... But yeah, not a bad price.
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

2 48 volt packs of the 100 aH would be enough to run a small car at 96 volts for 100 miles per charge?
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

nope, why don't you do a search... calculate wh/mile
calculate the wh of the pack

96*100 = 9600 Wh.

say a car can cruise around 400 wh/mile. thats 26 miles. If you can cruise at 300 wh/mile average MAYBE 32 miles.

sorry dude, you're gonna have to build a vehicle that can get 96 watt hours per mile, not really doable unless you build a low Rolling Resistance motorcycle and have a full fairing and tuck the whole time.

you're not going to move a car that weighs 2000lbs very fast, and definately not at 96wh/mile.

It seems people have been coming on here in the last couple weeks and asking "so, I want to get 100 miles, what do I need" (well, you need about 20-30 grand just for batteries) or "will this get me 100 miles" (sure, if you push it the other 50 miles).... Try and be serious... and realistic. batteries have nowhere near the power that gasoline does. We're not trying to travel the distance gas does, but make it cheaper to travel 30 miles or less for commuting.
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

and then some people come here and see your rude answers they immediately dismiss the forum because you smack em down when they have simple questions.

searching the forums for answers doesnt really do it, thats what the wiki is for.

if you think batteries will only get you 30 miles then tell grassrootsev.com's 100 mile club they are lying. steve clunn got 100 miles from a single charge with a small pickup and lead acid.

a simple yes or no with a nice answer would have done much better.

please others reading thisw thread we are not rude people here, just some that think that if you have questions about EVs then you are just plain stupid and any question you have is dumb.

please dont have the same attitude of weight lifters in a gym that can bench press 200 pounds and think if you cant lift what they lift dont come to the gym. Those weightlifters couldnt lift 200 pounds when they first started so understand that people just jumping into weight lifting need to put in the time and get support to get where they are.

same goes here, if you have built an EV or have already asked questions and now have the knowledge about EVs and their range understand people just finding the forum have questions, many the same you had, and when you got the answer you were not treated like an imbecile. you got the answer and now that you know the answer share it dont just tell people to look it up and say you are sick of people asking questions that you consider stupid.

besides, you said batteries will never get the range of gas, only 30 miles for commutes but yet there are MANY EVs that get more than 30 miles with lead acid. A switch to LiPo tends to reason you could get double the miles you got with lead acid.

sorry to vent, I myself am sick of people who say they know and in order for you to find out you are required to look it up, dont ask.

get off your high horse and HELP people that come here with questions, DONT think that people without knowledge are stupid just because you know....
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:34 PM
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Cool Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

michaeljayclark the thing that they don't tell you is they were probably driving 30mph to keep amp draw to a minimum to get that 100 miles or they went to 100% depth of discharge and hurt the batteries (probably a bragging thing just to say you did it). frodus has a point and I'll put it a little differently . One of the most important things that I look at is the http://www.evalbum.com/ There is a lot of good information there and by studying it you can start to form your own opinion and not be dependent on others opinions that may not be right (mine included ). Keep asking questions though and do the study work to . You know I quit watching TV about 1 1/2 years ago so I could have more time on my hobbies . Research is always time consuming but it usually pays off in the long run ..... J.W.
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

and then some people come here and see your rude answers they immediately dismiss the forum because you smack em down when they have simple questions.

Rude? or realistic? If someone wants to only install a 9600Wh of batteries, they won't reach 100mi/charge. grasroots guys all had over 20kwh in their vehicles. All lead, and pretty heavy. And furthermore, no mention of LiFePo!

searching the forums for answers doesnt really do it, thats what the wiki is for.

Also a great place to look, but searching already discussed topics does help.

if you think batteries will only get you 30 miles then tell grassrootsev.com's 100 mile club they are lying. steve clunn got 100 miles from a single charge with a small pickup and lead acid.

True, they're not lying, but with the pack he stated at 9600Wh WILL NOT work in a car, I don't care how you cut it. Those guys had 2-3times the Wh capacity. There's no contest. I was replying to his quote of 2 48V 100Ah packs. 9600Wh won't cut it.

a simple yes or no with a nice answer would have done much better.

I wanted to tell him WHY its not possible, not just a yes or no. I was being realistic... reality checks are sometimes needed up front so they know what the limitations are.

please others reading thisw thread we are not rude people here, just some that think that if you have questions about EVs then you are just plain stupid and any question you have is dumb.

I didn't see anyone being rude in this thread. No questions are dumb. But some questions need a good clear answer in a realistic way.

please dont have the same attitude of weight lifters in a gym that can bench press 200 pounds and think if you cant lift what they lift dont come to the gym. Those weightlifters couldnt lift 200 pounds when they first started so understand that people just jumping into weight lifting need to put in the time and get support to get where they are.

What kind of relation is that? I'm new too, but i've done time researching, talking to the guys that have EV's enough to know the limitations of a battery pack. I was passing that along. Sorry for passing along what I've learned in a quick few sentences.

same goes here, if you have built an EV or have already asked questions and now have the knowledge about EVs and their range understand people just finding the forum have questions, many the same you had, and when you got the answer you were not treated like an imbecile. you got the answer and now that you know the answer share it dont just tell people to look it up and say you are sick of people asking questions that you consider stupid.

Point taken, I just think people should search initially, thats all. I'll reword things in the future.

besides, you said batteries will never get the range of gas, only 30 miles for commutes but yet there are MANY EVs that get more than 30 miles with lead acid. A switch to LiPo tends to reason you could get double the miles you got with lead acid.

With 9600Wh they do? Haven't seen one yet. Can you please provide a link of a CAR or a TRUCK that has got past 30 miles with lead acid with a 9600Wh pack running at 96V! I'm very interested, it might change my design. I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm looking for battery options as much as anyone is.

sorry to vent, I myself am sick of people who say they know and in order for you to find out you are required to look it up, dont ask.


I don't think anyone said they were sick of it. I said to be serious and realistic in that request to get 100 miles per charge. They needed the equations I gave in order to put it into perspective. I only mentioned the others, because its been covered alot in the past few weeks, and might be worth mentioning so they could go see those threads to see if there's more helpful information.

get off your high horse and HELP people that come here with questions, DONT think that people without knowledge are stupid just because you know....

High horse? I didn't say he didn't have knowledge. He just didn't know how to relate volts and amps, to distance. I was trying to help. I just tried to put it in a serious tone that would help stir things in the right direction. I was also trying to get him to go see some of the other topics of "distance" and "battery capacity". Whats wrong with that? Sorry if it came out bad, it wasn't intended.


Ok, Enough explaining myself.... Here's my 2 cents:

Lifepo is not cheap. Its not the wonder battery that is going to make travelling cheaper. Its got a multiple year payback, and you will have to replace packs once every 5-10 years (data is not really available yet). Its not a cheap investment, but its better than lead due to the power to weight density and the charge/discharge capacity. Still softer than some lead packs, but much lighter. Sure, you can go xxx miles, but its going to cost you $xxxxx. If you want 100, look at what kWh those grassroots guys used, and try and do something similar.

If you break it down, lets say that LiFepo is 1/3 the weight of lead. Lets say that gets you 40% further because of less weight, maybe less. One grassroots guy used 27.36 kWh of NiMH. Lets estimate that you'll need 24kWh to get 100 miles like he did. Since there are no cruising W/mile, or weight of the cars on grassroots, lets assume 200@25 mph (thats being nice, because they went SLOW). So, 24kWh, crusing at 25mph or so, gets you that 100 miles you give or take want with LiFePo. Watt hours is watt hours, no matter how you cut it. Your motor takes watt hours per mile to cruise at a certain speed.

What would 24kwh cost in LiFePo? Well, only one says his voltage he's running at, lets assume ~120 or so. So, roughly 200Ah at 120V would do 24kWh. 200Ah can be had for 400. 120V is ~40 cells, thats 16 grand in batteries alone. If thats affordable, then yes, 100miles is achievable.

Note: These are estimates based on what I've seen on EV album. Cruising wh/mile might be lower or higher, but its a decent estimate.

Last edited by frodus; 04-27-2008 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:11 AM
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Default Re: The new world order (LiFePo4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Check this out.

http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm

It looks like lithium ion batteries that are affordable are finally here. And this is only retail pricing!!!!

Hey KiwiEV, what do ya say? think your "unspent gas money" could make your next pack lithium?

I'm feeling better everyday with this technology. Pretty much sold on going this route with my car.
David, Thanks for the inf. At the rate my Mustang is going i'm pretty sure I'll be switching from Pb to Li and if it keeps taking longer maybe nuclear will be available by then. Damn, i spent so much time welding up those Pb battery racks, oh well
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