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  #1  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:45 AM
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Default [EVDL] Range ??

After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean. Based
on this I think I will go with the
recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16 lead
acid battery.

My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me 30-40
miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert value of
the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)

I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH 14pounds)
is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2 x 24 =
9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.

I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it was,
then the average battery current should be almost half. If the Peurkert
value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The batteries will
also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.


Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com
http://evalbum.com/1482
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

[quote]On 7 Feb 2010 at 9:39, xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:

> The batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds ..
> Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

In general, range is roughly proportional to the mass of the lead. By that
estimate, you can predict that your range will be about 676/897 * 35 miles,
or about 26 miles - a hit of about 25%.

> If the Peurkert value is about the same, how will that affect my
> range?

You're changing from a 156v 100ah battery to a 288v 34ah battery. (I looked
up the PC680/XE16 battery on the web, and the amp-hour specification I found
said 17ah.) I suspect that you'll be hurt by Peukert, rather than helped.
Let's see if this is so.

You can approximate the Peukert exponent of the Odyssey battery using Uve
Rick's battery calculator. It used to be on Geocities but when they shut
down I salvaged it, so you can now find it (slightly prettied up) at

http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html

It tells us that the Peukert exponent of your Odyssey battery is about 1.15.

Let's see how this will affect your range at constant highway speeds. For
the sake of simplicity I'll assume your car uses 10hp (10kw allowing for
losses) at about 50mph. It probably doesn't, but this will give you some
idea of what will happen when you change the battery.

Neglecting voltage sag, your former setup would provide 10kw with about 64
amps. This is 0.64C.

Using Uve's calculator again, I get 1.145 for the Dekas' Peukert value. For
your highway cruise at 64 amps, Uve calculates their capacity as 69ah.
Thus, in our hypothetical car, you could drive at 50mph for 1.08 hours, for
a total range of 54 miles, with the old Deka pack.

Now let's look at the new setup with the Odyssey batteries. At a nomina
288v (again neglecting sag) It'll require 35 amps to provide the same 10kw.
That's about 1C, meaning you'll be asking more of your batteries. This will
push you higher into the Peukert curve. It will stress the battery more.

Let's assume that the current will divide equally between the paired
batteries (it may not, but this makes it easier). Each battery will see
17.5a. Again using the calculator, we see that each battery will give you
about 11ah, or a total of 22ah. Thus our hypothetical car can sustain 50mph
for .63 hours, or about 31 miles, with the Odysseys.

So, on a simple weight basis, you'll have about 75% of the mass in lead so
your range should drop by 25%.

But with these little batteries, Peukert is biting harder than that. Using
the second method above, the estimate is that your range will fall by 43%,
at least at highway speeds.

In mixed low speed / highway driving, the range reduction will probably be
somewhere between these numbers. Wild, irresponsible guess - maybe 35%,
dropping your range to perhaps 20 to 26 miles.

I'll also point out that, everything else being equal, a double string of
small batteries almost always costs more per mile of use than a single
string of larger batteries.

Hope this helps.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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  #3  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:56 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

[quote] xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:
> After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean. Based

Is the possibility of using lithium beyond the point of discussion?

What are your needs/desires on current? I believe it is true that you
will find yourself buying a LFP pack that gives you three times the
range of lead in order to get the current of lead. That is, it is
difficult/impossible to choose LFPs that will give you the same range
as lead and 1/3 the weight along with not much extra cost.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 785 days 5 hours 43 minutes

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  #4  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

Hi Dave,

Is there a reason you want to go to double voltage?
The move will likely cost you a new controller and
possibly a DC/DC converter in addition to the pack,
unless you already have a setup allowing both high
and low voltage.

Why not change the Deka's for a new 156V 100 Ah pack?
I had pretty good service from relatively cheap
AGMs made in China (as most lead-acids) under US management
by UPG (Universal Power Group).
I have also heard of another EVer that had two of his
(smaller, 34Ah) batteries go open circuit, but I never
experienced that problem on my 110A or on the half a
dozen other EVs that decided to use these batteries.
Prices of lead have risen since I bought my pack
but I believe that UB121100 are still affordable
compared with other AGM offerings.
Weight was also some 69 or 71 lbs so you would see
no difference compared to the Deka's.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: xxx@xxx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of xxx@xxx.xxx
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:10 PM
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??

After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean.
Based
on this I think I will go with the
recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16
lead acid battery.

My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me
30-40 miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert
value of the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)

I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH
14pounds) is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x
16 x 2 x 24 = 9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.

I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it
was, then the average battery current should be almost half. If the
Peurkert value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The
batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.


Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com
http://evalbum.com/1482
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:57 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

Why is lithium out of your price range? According to a quick Google search,
the PC60 is about $115, and your setup that would come out to be about $5500
(48 batteries) and a similar lithium pack that would have loads more range,
would be about $5800 from EV Components (48 100Ah TS Cells).

I have been looking into Odyssey batteries from my Civic, but it's the same
cost as going lithium, only lithium has 4-5x the life and twice the range
for the same price.

David Harrington

Electric Civic Conversion
http://civicity.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of xxx@xxx.xxx
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 9:40 AM
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??

After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean.
Based
on this I think I will go with the
recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16 lead
acid battery.

My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me 30-40
miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert value of
the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)

I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH 14pounds)
is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2 x 24 =
9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.

I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it was,
then the average battery current should be almost half. If the Peurkert
value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The batteries will

also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.


Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com
http://evalbum.com/1482
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:25 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

>You can approximate the Peukert exponent of the Odyssey battery using Uve
Rick's battery calculator. It used to be on Geocities but when they shut
down >I salvaged it, so you can now find it (slightly prettied up) at

>http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html

The Battery Prices listed on that site are way out of date in case anyone is
comparing....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range ??

[quote]On 7 Feb 2010 at 9:39, xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:

> The batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds ..
> Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

In general, range is roughly proportional to the mass of the lead. By that
estimate, you can predict that your range will be about 676/897 * 35 miles,
or about 26 miles - a hit of about 25%.

> If the Peurkert value is about the same, how will that affect my
> range?

You're changing from a 156v 100ah battery to a 288v 34ah battery. (I looked

up the PC680/XE16 battery on the web, and the amp-hour specification I found

said 17ah.) I suspect that you'll be hurt by Peukert, rather than helped.
Let's see if this is so.

You can approximate the Peukert exponent of the Odyssey battery using Uve
Rick's battery calculator. It used to be on Geocities but when they shut
down I salvaged it, so you can now find it (slightly prettied up) at

http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html

It tells us that the Peukert exponent of your Odyssey battery is about 1.15.

Let's see how this will affect your range at constant highway speeds. For
the sake of simplicity I'll assume your car uses 10hp (10kw allowing for
losses) at about 50mph. It probably doesn't, but this will give you some
idea of what will happen when you change the battery.

Neglecting voltage sag, your former setup would provide 10kw with about 64
amps. This is 0.64C.

Using Uve's calculator again, I get 1.145 for the Dekas' Peukert value. For

your highway cruise at 64 amps, Uve calculates their capacity as 69ah.
Thus, in our hypothetical car, you could drive at 50mph for 1.08 hours, for
a total range of 54 miles, with the old Deka pack.

Now let's look at the new setup with the Odyssey batteries. At a nomina
288v (again neglecting sag) It'll require 35 amps to provide the same 10kw.

That's about 1C, meaning you'll be asking more of your batteries. This will

push you higher into the Peukert curve. It will stress the battery more.

Let's assume that the current will divide equally between the paired
batteries (it may not, but this makes it easier). Each battery will see
17.5a. Again using the calculator, we see that each battery will give you
about 11ah, or a total of 22ah. Thus our hypothetical car can sustain 50mph

for .63 hours, or about 31 miles, with the Odysseys.

So, on a simple weight basis, you'll have about 75% of the mass in lead so
your range should drop by 25%.

But with these little batteries, Peukert is biting harder than that. Using
the second method above, the estimate is that your range will fall by 43%,
at least at highway speeds.

In mixed low speed / highway driving, the range reduction will probably be
somewhere between these numbers. Wild, irresponsible guess - maybe 35%,
dropping your range to perhaps 20 to 26 miles.

I'll also point out that, everything else being equal, a double string of
small batteries almost always costs more per mile of use than a single
string of larger batteries.

Hope this helps.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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  #7  
Old 02-07-2010, 06:35 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

[quote]On 7 Feb 2010 at 18:11, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> The Battery Prices listed on that site are way out of date in case anyone is
> comparing....
>

Sorry if that isn't clear. As the page says : "Note: Battery prices shown
below are the lowest price I have been informed of for that battery. These
battery prices are not from a specific distributor or even collected at the
same time, and are in any case out of date."

When I snagged Uve's page out from under the Yahoo / Geocities bulldozer and
cleaned it up, I decided to leave those prices on the page as a matter of
historical interest. I moved them to the bottom of the page (they used to
be at the top) and added that little disclaimier, "and are in any case out
of date," to Uve's original text.

I guess I could boldface that statement, or otherwise make it more
prominent. However, I think (or at least hope) that most people know that
current and valid battery prices come from battery dealers, not from static
webpages. ;-)

BTW, as it turns out, Reocities salvaged Uve's original page. You can see
it without my changes here, if you care :

http://reocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html

It's probably also available at archive.org, but regrettably sites and pages
archived there tend to be painfully slow or not served at all (thanks to
hideously overloaded servers), and notoriously incomplete even when they are
served.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:08 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

Dave, Was that Soul Searching, or Wallet/Bank Book Searching (Looking for
extra Benjamin's)?

And - while your searching your soul - please have a look at my notes -
posted on my site at www.myelectricfly.com/whitepaper.php regarding
lead-acid vs. ThunderSky LFP as purchased from www.evcomponents.com.

I think you might find out that - with even this basic two page comparison
of some simple issues - the Lead Acid Batteries will cost you more than you
realized - what with short life - excessive abuse, and out of spec
applications (They were never created for the loads we put them through, for
the durations that they are loaded, with as deep a discharge as we want.
maybe deep cycle - but at the C/20 Rating - not as much at the C/2 or C
Ratings or higher).

Also - the batteries in all serious conversions should be chosen - as I see
it - to at least be able to handle the steady state load of the motor at
it's nominal specs, and ideally - be able to safely handle pulses at twice
the motors nominal specs of 15 - 30 Seconds (longer - if you have a lot of
hills in your home zone).

My electricfly - for instance - is motor rated at 20.9 HP at 90V X 184 Amps,
so - a set of 30 - 32 TS-LFP90AHA Cells (At $99 each) which are rated for 3C
Nominal Continuous, would be operating at about 2C - within their limits,
and with some reserve for hills, but still give me about 4 - 6 times the
life of the usual Lead Acid Batteries, plus - extend the range beyond the
lead acid - by a factor of 2-3 within reason.

My highway drive with the Trojans currently - when new - took the pack
voltage down all the way from a fully charged 105 Volts to 75 Volts at 185
Amps at 60 Mph / 100 Kmh, meaning about 14 kW used from the 16 kW or so the
nominal specs suggest. It shows I need about 140 Wh per Km for basic
calculations of range. However - the safe lower limit - with perfectly
balanced Batteries - was really 84 volts - or 8 X 10.5V, so I was strangling
them in ignorance at the time. As they say - and EV Batter pack does not
die - it is most often Murdered!

Robert Weekley
xxx@xxx.xxx
http://groups.google.com/group/electricfly1
=============================

----- Original Message -----
From: <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 9:39 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??


> After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean.
> Based
> on this I think I will go with the
> recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16 lead
> acid battery.
>
> My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me 30-40
> miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert value of
> the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)
>
> I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH 14pounds)
> is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2 x 24
> =
> 9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.
>
> I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it was,
> then the average battery current should be almost half. If the Peurkert
> value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The batteries
> will
> also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.
>
>
> Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
> electricdelorean.com
> http://evalbum.com/1482
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  #9  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:27 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

I can't answer your question on range, but are you going for range or
performance? If I recall you were a bit dissatisfied on both ends.
Based on your choices of upgrading to a Z2K and these batteries, it
looks like you are going for performance. You can't really get both
without spending lots of money.

[quote] xxx@xxx.xxx wrote:

> After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric
> DeLorean. Based
> on this I think I will go with the
> recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16
> lead
> acid battery.
>
> My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me
> 30-40
> miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert
> value of
> the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)
>
> I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH
> 14pounds)
> is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2
> x 24 =
> 9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.
>
> I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what
> it was,
> then the average battery current should be almost half. If the
> Peurkert
> value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The
> batteries will
> also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.
>
>
> Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
> electricdelorean.com
> http://evalbum.com/1482
> -------------- next part --------------
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Range ??

Willie, I think Lithium is not an option because I want to be able to pull
1500 battery amps minimum. Thunderskys have only a 3C rating. I
understand that their 10C "burst" is measured in milliseconds. A123 and other Li
can do it but they all have a very expensive initial cost.

Cor van de Water, My decision to go up in voltage is so that I can maintain
the motor amps at higher RPMs. I already have the Z2K-HV controller.
You are correct, I will have to do something about my Iota-55 DC/DC. I don't
think the UB121100 can supply the current I need. I was thinking of
replacing my 9A31s with PC2150s. They certainly could supply the current but
since I don't have room for more, the voltage will be the same and I will
still have low horsepower at higher RPMs. I could just keep shifting to keep
the RPMs down, I suppose...

David H, I can get the PC680s for less than $95 each and the 100AH
Thunderskys seem to be unable to supply enough peak current for racing.

Roland, Thanks for the calculator link.

David, Thanks for the range estimation.

Thank you,

Dave Delman
eLectricDeLorean.com
(Unfortunately not self recharging!)

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