manzanita shocker! - DIY Electric Car Forums
Go Back  

DIY Electric Car Forums > EV Conversions and Builds > Batteries and Charging

Register Blogs FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-16-2011, 10:53 AM
F16bmathis F16bmathis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 365
F16bmathis is on a distinguished road
Default manzanita shocker!

So I'm charging my truck, main disconnect is off, and I'm going to start wrenching on the HV wiring going from the Curtis 1231C to the main disconnect. Just for fun, I decided to see if there is any voltage differential between what I'm working on and the trucks ground by using the wrench. A few big sparks later, I got a meter and found just over 100V across any Curtis connection to the trucks ground, but only with the charger on. Didn't check for AC, and the controller still works.

Whats up???!!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Ziggythewiz's Avatar
Ziggythewiz Ziggythewiz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 3,988
Ziggythewiz will become famous soon enough
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Do you usually use your wrench as a volt meter? That could be pretty cool as it could function as an amp meter as well with the shade of red glow used to indicate amps...

I'd guess your charger's grounded to the chasis and one of the curtis inputs is connected to the charger bypassing the disconnect? Do you have a precharge around the contactor that's always on?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:38 AM
MN Driver MN Driver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 870
MN Driver is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

The Manzanita isn't isolated, so if you are charging and the charger and your car is connected to ground, you've just passed AC voltage from the terminal to the chassis of your car using your wrench. Check for AC voltage, should show you a nominal outlet voltage.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:17 PM
F16bmathis F16bmathis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 365
F16bmathis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN Driver View Post
The Manzanita isn't isolated, so if you are charging and the charger and your car is connected to ground, you've just passed AC voltage from the terminal to the chassis of your car using your wrench. Check for AC voltage, should show you a nominal outlet voltage.
So if I were to isolate the charger from the truck by using non-conducting bolts, would that work, or cause a horrible explosion like Kelly controllers do when you isolate them in that manner? (Kelly tech thought that would work)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:36 PM
MN Driver MN Driver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 870
MN Driver is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

I'm not familiar enough with Manzanitas to know but I don't see why it would require the car to be grounded, but I think I'd rather have the car grounded than to have AC voltage present at the chassis if it wasn't. I think the idea is generally to avoid touching any terminals of a vehicle that has a charger without isolation.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:48 AM
F16bmathis F16bmathis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 365
F16bmathis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Actually, being as lazy as I am, I usually do use wrenches to test voltage. Also use adjustable as hammer, and as for the current meter glowing, I use my Hydrogen generator (youtube look up f16bmathis) when I connect my 220 welder to the plates! Doesn't glow under water though...

The precharge is across the main contactor, not the main disconnect. Thats why I'm confused on where the V is from. Could be an AC voltage, now that I'm at work and put two seconds of thought towards it, or...

Thing was, every connection (HV) at the Curtis had the V. The more I think about it, the more serious it seems. Maybe its time to dust off the Prius and see if it still runs while I put a day or two into looking into this.

Also, the motor seemed very warm considering I just drove 15 miles at 65-70 but in 30 degree weather... Charged for an hour before finding sparks. Makes me wonder if I have voltage running through the motor while charging? Yup, I gotta look into this.

1. Check for AC & DC at all Curtis connections (which is it, and where)
2. Ensure main disconnect really disconnects
3. Isolate Manzanita from trucks ground (remount with teflon screws?)
4. Battery pack is shorted to trucks ground, but only a humidity short. It goes away if you blow dry the battery pack, and the short moves when blow drying.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:57 AM
Russco Russco is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 96
Russco is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by F16bmathis View Post
So I'm charging my truck, main disconnect is off, and I'm going to start wrenching on the HV wiring going from the Curtis 1231C to the main disconnect. Just for fun, I decided to see if there is any voltage differential between what I'm working on and the trucks ground by using the wrench. A few big sparks later, I got a meter and found just over 100V across any Curtis connection to the trucks ground, but only with the charger on. Didn't check for AC, and the controller still works.

Whats up???!!
What's up? Are you trying to kill yourself?

Normal for a non-isolated charger to have a high voltage AC on the battery pack when charging. Connecting a short via your handy wrench should draw hundreds of peak amps for a fraction of a second until the GFCI/circuit breaker trips.

Be sure you life insurance is paid up.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:29 PM
F16bmathis F16bmathis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 365
F16bmathis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russco View Post
What's up? Are you trying to kill yourself?

Normal for a non-isolated charger to have a high voltage AC on the battery pack when charging. Connecting a short via your handy wrench should draw hundreds of peak amps for a fraction of a second until the GFCI/circuit breaker trips.

Be sure you life insurance is paid up.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO
I was under the assumtion there would be no voltage present at the controller just because I was charging the batteries. I should not assume, therefore I use wrenches to test, maybe it would be better to just grab a meter and check it, but I would have never thought I'd have anything to worry about, so just before I grab the 4:00 wire, I decided to "test" it with a wrench, not really expecting anything to happen, but it was safer than just grabbing the darn wire and going for it.

No breakers tripped, charger kept charging. Of course I didn't keep the wrench shorted for long. Seems I have a reflex action of some sort.

So Now I know, there is voltage there. Is this O.K.? Or is it a problem I should fix.

Life insurance.... Yeah, for all the crazy Hydrogen generating, electric car zapping, motorcycle driving I do, I should really think about making someone happy cause I'm dead. I think my guardian angel is getting tired of watching over me!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-16-2011, 01:38 PM
Russco Russco is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 96
Russco is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by F16bmathis View Post
I was under the assumtion there would be no voltage present at the controller just because I was charging the batteries. I should not assume, therefore I use wrenches to test, maybe it would be better to just grab a meter and check it, but I would have never thought I'd have anything to worry about, so just before I grab the 4:00 wire, I decided to "test" it with a wrench, not really expecting anything to happen, but it was safer than just grabbing the darn wire and going for it.

No breakers tripped, charger kept charging. Of course I didn't keep the wrench shorted for long. Seems I have a reflex action of some sort.

So Now I know, there is voltage there. Is this O.K.? Or is it a problem I should fix.

Life insurance.... Yeah, for all the crazy hydrogen generating, electric car zapping, motorcycle driving I do, I should really think about making someone happy cause I'm dead. I think my guardian angel is getting tired of watching over me!
There is nothing wrong with your charger. It's suppose to have AC line voltage at the batteries, with respect to ground, when charging.

It is very important to ground the vehicle chassis to the charger AC line ground, I believe through the green wire at the Anderson connector. If the chassis is not grounded, a leakage from the propulsion battery circuit will make the car body "hot", a very dangerous condition.

I am assuming you are not GFI protected? Rudman chargers require a GFI protected outlet. So does the NEC. Article 625.

Be careful. Keep your hands in your pockets.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-16-2011, 01:52 PM
F16bmathis F16bmathis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 365
F16bmathis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: manzanita shocker!

OOps, let me read that Manzanita manual again. The charger is not "wired" ground to the trucks ground. AND I DO have a short of the batteries to the trucks ground, though its just a humidity short that goes away with a blow dryer over the batteries for a few minutes.

I just would'nt have thought they'd have it configured to electrocute someone who's working on what should be an isolated system. Or is it that they don't, but a pack short is causing this?

Either way, my gardian angel says I have to quit working on the truck when its plugged in or he quits!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Share or Bookmark this

Tags
charger, shorted, voltage

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 
Support DIY Electric Car
Sponsors

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Ad Management by RedTyger