[EVDL List]

I think there are two issues coming out of this:

1. Is 110V 15A (or even 20A) sufficient for overnight charging?
2. Is the level III network build-out worth its cost?

For #1, I'll state my experience. On a dark, cold, wet day, I run my Leaf
with the heater, defrost, wipers, and lights. It appears to get about 50
miles per charge (26kwh) under those circumstances. 40 miles of that would
be about 21kwh and would take at least 15 hours to charge at 15A. For me,
that's inadquate because I won't be able to use the car the next day. True,
most of the time, I won't need that much kwh. So, the question is similar
to range anxiety - how much range do you need, or otherwise put, how often
can you do without your car?

For #2, I think the US gov is making a big mistake on putting out the
current set of level III charge stations. At least here, in Wash. state,
these stations are designed around the Leaf - to give 80% of a 26kwh charge
in 30 minutes. Well, in my opionion, 30 minutes is already a bit long
unless you are charging at your final destination - work, shopping... On
top of that, I'm certain that near-future vehicles will take much higher
charge current than the Leaf. But, here at least, it will still take 30
minutes to charge about 20kwh. By the time they finish the current
buildout, these stations will be obsolete. At the very least, the buildout
should have included higher current capacity so that upgrading the stations
would be relatively inexpensive.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: 01 February, 2012 9:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

David,

Your numbers appear to be wrong also - 120V * 12.25A is 1470W.

His numbers were not necessarily wrong but it is how you read them.
He said approx 5 hours for up to 40 miles.
Most people drive much less for commute, but in an extreme case the 40 miles
should take about 10kWh from the pack. =

If you are pulling 120V 15A (which is very well possible as continuous
current from a 20A outlet) then you need 5 1/2 hours to put 10kWh into the
car. Of course there are efficiency losses so it will be a little more, but
the "about 5 hours for up to 40 miles" is not far from truth.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of David Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go on 1
hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination of hills,
city driving and some at 50mph. Do full size cars actually go ~5 miles on a
1 hour charge from a 120V 15A outlet? If my Kill-a-watt meter is close my
charger is drawing 12.25A and the line voltage is 120.5Vac for ~1035W. Does
the Leaf and other "typical" EVs only consume ~200Wh/mi from the wall? I
find that hard to believe. My average over the last 11,000miles with my
LiFePO4 pack is 172Wh/mi from the wall. This is with a Gizmo which won't go
over ~50mph. After a 40 mile drive it takes 6-7 hours to charge the battery
in my Gizmo.
No way a full sized car can charge in 5 hours after a 40 mile drive when
charging from a 120V 15A outlet if only 80% of its capacity is used.

While I agree with his premise, it does him no good to use inaccurate
numbers or numbers from the battery and not from the wall.

[quote] Dennis Miles <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link yo=
u =

> all should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility =

> in San Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points =

> which are very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging =

> stations we are all wasting our money on when they are simply not =

> needed or necessary for Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are =

> being ripped off by profiteers and charlatans who are simply out to =

> make a big profit at our expense. Will the next item be a five pound =

> box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle under your electric car if =

> the battery leaks? (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=3D05440502S538&CC=3D&
> p=3D1&cID=3D0&cValue=3D1
> *
> **
>
> To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outle=
t as =

> is typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power =

> to recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge =

> used in driving up to 40 miles daily (That is 85% of American
> drivers.) An investment of thousands of dollars to be able to =

> recharge from 240 V. at 50 A. is superfluous. Even owners of the =

> Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000 for the car usually use only a 120 =

> V. outlet for recharging (70% from owner's survey) because they do =

> not, nor does any other member of the majority of electric car users =

> feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable value for a dedicated =

> electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772 standard level 2 is =

> suitable for public charging stations only because it is being funded =

> by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only salesmanship and =

> advertising or marketing hype are responsible for installation and use =

> of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in private garages, carports,
or other local charging locations.
>
> Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium =

> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes =

> more than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many =

> citizens would be served not just the few served by a series of =

> roadside "High Speed" DC charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Founder)
> *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]* =

> *xxx@xxx.xxx.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was =

> scrubbed...
> URL: =

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--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

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