[EVDL List]

G'day All

Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And not
only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized into
an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range? Hope
to start a discussion on potential hybrids (real hybrids, that is, not
petroleum-only ones).

Since steam engines will run right down to stopped, would that team up with
an electric well? My knowlege of steam engines is not that great, and I've
been lazy and done almost no research, so... shooting from the hip here!

Pros:
Instant drive off - steam comes 'on-line' once pressure is up and unloads
the electric motor.
Drive like an automatic - no clutch needed, single speed ratio.
Reverse the electric and steam together - no reverse gear needed.
Flexible fuel, just depends on what there is to burn, and what burner/s
you've equipped.
Smaller steam engine than would be required for a non-hybrid.

Cons:
May not be able to register a vehicle with a steam engine anyway
(complexity of the necesary safety systems? Emissions?).
Speed ratio of a steam vs electric may be an issue - high speed of a
turbine or low speed of a reciprocating steam engine.
Weight of a steam system added to the weight of an EV may be problematic?
Cost of building/buying a steam system may be prohibitive.

What else? Maybe a series hybrid, using a steam engine driving a generator
to supplement the battery as a range extender?

We've discussed capstone turbines before, and unless you need the heat the
cost/electricity ratio is a bit off the planet. That may be the case with a
steam engine, too.

So, Comments?

Regards

[Technik] James

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <xxx@xxx.xxx.au>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:06 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Maybe an offbeat hybrid idea... steam!


> Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
> parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And not
> only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized into
> an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range?

I see two different paths, obviously.

Parallel Hybrids (Prius is the big example)
The big advantage of Gasoline and similar technologies in a parallel hybrid
is the quick revving of the ICE. Once of the biggest reasons cited for not
using turbine engines is the multi-second turbo lag. Stirling engines have
similar issues. Even the newer (and I see no reason for it to be more
efficient than Sterling) Cyclone Engine is far slower revving, making it
unsuitable for the majority of drivers. The Steam engine is a high torque
system but very slow revving, making it largely unsuitable as well. Of
course I see parallel hybrids as a stepping stone for the market, a
technological solution to a disappearing problem, a peculiarity of the
efficient way to use a fast revving system like the ICE.

Series Hybrids (Volt is the big example, also called PHEV, REEV, EREV, and
I'm sure others)
Any system that functions as a chemical-electrical converter works
wonderfully, and efficiency is the major concern, anything else, rev-rate,
RPM, etc, even technology type doesn't matter. A low RPM generator is
approximately the same difficulty in manufacture as a high RPM one. Rev rate
doesn't matter because the system doesn't need to rev quickly or slowly, it
simply has to reach target RPM. Efficiency is of primary concern though
because efficiency dictates the conversion rate, using a chemical-electrical
converter system that is 80% efficient will have twice the MPG of a 40%
converter. This is the primary fascination with Fuel Cells, they are a
direct chemical-electrical convertion, no RPM, no revs, nothing but
conversion.

My personal preference right now would be turbines, but I have nothing
against Stirling. I just don't think Fuel Cells can be brought up to a more
cost efficient position in the next few decades, I'd be happy to be proven
wrong on this.
Joe

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Some interesting reading for you, search wood gas.

Stub



[quote]James Massey wrote:
> G'day All
> what about steam?

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Consider a steam turbine that does not use water. Another 'liquid' you
could use would be something like freon or whatever it's ozone friendly
replacement is.

[quote] James Massey <xxx@xxx.xxx.au>wrote:

> G'day All
>
> Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
> parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And not
> only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized into
> an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range? Hope
> to start a discussion on potential hybrids (real hybrids, that is, not
> petroleum-only ones).
>
> Since steam engines will run right down to stopped, would that team up with
> an electric well? My knowlege of steam engines is not that great, and I've
> been lazy and done almost no research, so... shooting from the hip here!
>
> Pros:
> Instant drive off - steam comes 'on-line' once pressure is up and unloads
> the electric motor.
> Drive like an automatic - no clutch needed, single speed ratio.
> Reverse the electric and steam together - no reverse gear needed.
> Flexible fuel, just depends on what there is to burn, and what burner/s
> you've equipped.
> Smaller steam engine than would be required for a non-hybrid.
>
> Cons:
> May not be able to register a vehicle with a steam engine anyway
> (complexity of the necesary safety systems? Emissions?).
> Speed ratio of a steam vs electric may be an issue - high speed of a
> turbine or low speed of a reciprocating steam engine.
> Weight of a steam system added to the weight of an EV may be problematic?
> Cost of building/buying a steam system may be prohibitive.
>
> What else? Maybe a series hybrid, using a steam engine driving a generator
> to supplement the battery as a range extender?
>
> We've discussed capstone turbines before, and unless you need the heat the
> cost/electricity ratio is a bit off the planet. That may be the case with a
> steam engine, too.
>
> So, Comments?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Take a look at this 1999 steam driven car using 1/2 of a vw engine ,
Google: Barrett Steam Car. it is on the web with color pictures and cad drawings.
It looks well thought out.
And note, Water is Ozone friendly! and so am I.


In a message dated 2/15/2009 9:03:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
xxx@xxx.xxx writes:

Consider a steam turbine that does not use water. Another 'liquid' you
could use would be something like freon or whatever it's ozone friendly
replacement is.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 3:06 AM, James Massey
[quote]<xxx@xxx.xxx.au>wrote:

> G'day All
>
> Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
> parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And not
> only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized into
> an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range? Hope
> to start a discussion on potential hybrids (real hybrids, that is, not
> petroleum-only ones).
>
> Since steam engines will run right down to stopped, would that team up
with
> an electric well? My knowlege of steam engines is not that great, and I've
> been lazy and done almost no research, so... shooting from the hip here!
>
> Pros:
> Instant drive off - steam comes 'on-line' once pressure is up and unloads
> the electric motor.
> Drive like an automatic - no clutch needed, single speed ratio.
> Reverse the electric and steam together - no reverse gear needed.
> Flexible fuel, just depends on what there is to burn, and what burner/s
> you've equipped.
> Smaller steam engine than would be required for a non-hybrid.
>
> Cons:
> May not be able to register a vehicle with a steam engine anyway
> (complexity of the necesary safety systems? Emissions?).
> Speed ratio of a steam vs electric may be an issue - high speed of a
> turbine or low speed of a reciprocating steam engine.
> Weight of a steam system added to the weight of an EV may be problematic?
> Cost of building/buying a steam system may be prohibitive.
>
> What else? Maybe a series hybrid, using a steam engine driving a generator
> to supplement the battery as a range extender?
>
> We've discussed capstone turbines before, and unless you need the heat the
> cost/electricity ratio is a bit off the planet. That may be the case with a
> steam engine, too.
>
> So, Comments?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
bemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Intersting site.
It also in the first paragraph gives you a good
reason why it does not make sense to do the
conversion to steam, except "to be different":
"... and gets 18 miles per gallon of fuel."

I think that the original stock 1500cc VW
engine would take a car much further on a
gallon and an Electric conversion stretches
the MPG equivalent even much further, so I
regard this as a step backwards.

Some may build this kind of thing out of
nostalgia to the steam era, but the practicality
as a daily driver or the efficiency to reduce
dependence on foreign fuel sources are not there.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: xxx@xxx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of xxx@xxx.xxx
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 12:31 PM
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Maybe an offbeat hybrid idea... steam!

Take a look at this 1999 steam driven car using 1/2 of a vw engine ,
Google: Barrett Steam Car. it is on the web with color pictures and cad
drawings.
It looks well thought out.
And note, Water is Ozone friendly! and so am I.


In a message dated 2/15/2009 9:03:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
xxx@xxx.xxx writes:

Consider a steam turbine that does not use water. Another 'liquid' you
could use would be something like freon or whatever it's ozone
friendly
replacement is.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 3:06 AM, James Massey
[quote]<xxx@xxx.xxx.au>wrote:

> G'day All
>
> Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
> parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And
not
> only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized
into
> an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range?
Hope
> to start a discussion on potential hybrids (real hybrids, that is,
not
> petroleum-only ones).
>
> Since steam engines will run right down to stopped, would that team
up
with
> an electric well? My knowlege of steam engines is not that great, and
I've
> been lazy and done almost no research, so... shooting from the hip
here!
>
> Pros:
> Instant drive off - steam comes 'on-line' once pressure is up and
unloads
> the electric motor.
> Drive like an automatic - no clutch needed, single speed ratio.
> Reverse the electric and steam together - no reverse gear needed.
> Flexible fuel, just depends on what there is to burn, and what
burner/s
> you've equipped.
> Smaller steam engine than would be required for a non-hybrid.
>
> Cons:
> May not be able to register a vehicle with a steam engine anyway
> (complexity of the necesary safety systems? Emissions?).
> Speed ratio of a steam vs electric may be an issue - high speed of a
> turbine or low speed of a reciprocating steam engine.
> Weight of a steam system added to the weight of an EV may be
problematic?
> Cost of building/buying a steam system may be prohibitive.
>
> What else? Maybe a series hybrid, using a steam engine driving a
generator
> to supplement the battery as a range extender?
>
> We've discussed capstone turbines before, and unless you need the
heat the
> cost/electricity ratio is a bit off the planet. That may be the case
with a
> steam engine, too.
>
> So, Comments?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir

[top]http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc

668072%26hmpgID=62%2
6bcd=fe
bemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[EVDL List]

Straying off topic here, but just a note: I've seen the Barrett steam car in
operation and it did perform pretty well.
It was an evolving project over many years/decades and achieved somewhere
around 20mpg fuel economy as I recall---not impressive, but good for a
steamcar. What I didn't like about the Barrett steamcar was that he threw
out the baby with the bathwater in converting to steam. People think of
steam and electric propulsion as being quiet. Well, that is true generally,
but when we throw in noisy vacuum pumps and belt-driven accessories, things
can get loud. The Barrett steamcar rattled louder than a normal VW engine,
and that's with 2 cylinders missing! Several pumps and blowers were being
belt-driven to make that car work. Not real simple, unlike the early
simple, quiet steamers.
Now back to electric...

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.


-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On Behalf
Of xxx@xxx.xxx
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:01 PM
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Maybe an offbeat hybrid idea... steam!

Take a look at this 1999 steam driven car using 1/2 of a vw engine ,
Google: Barrett Steam Car. it is on the web with color pictures and cad
drawings.
It looks well thought out.
And note, Water is Ozone friendly! and so am I.


In a message dated 2/15/2009 9:03:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
xxx@xxx.xxx writes:

Consider a steam turbine that does not use water. Another 'liquid' you
could use would be something like freon or whatever it's ozone friendly
replacement is.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 3:06 AM, James Massey
[quote]<xxx@xxx.xxx.au>wrote:

> G'day All
>
> Discussing today the possibilities of hybrid vehicles (ICE running in
> parallel to a DC motor) and the topic came up, what about steam? And not
> only steam, what other technologies are there that may be hybridized into
> an electric-dominant vehicle to assist a battery EV for longer range?
Hope
> to start a discussion on potential hybrids (real hybrids, that is, not
> petroleum-only ones).
>
> Since steam engines will run right down to stopped, would that team up
with
> an electric well? My knowlege of steam engines is not that great, and
I've
> been lazy and done almost no research, so... shooting from the hip here!
>
> Pros:
> Instant drive off - steam comes 'on-line' once pressure is up and unloads
> the electric motor.
> Drive like an automatic - no clutch needed, single speed ratio.
> Reverse the electric and steam together - no reverse gear needed.
> Flexible fuel, just depends on what there is to burn, and what burner/s
> you've equipped.
> Smaller steam engine than would be required for a non-hybrid.
>
> Cons:
> May not be able to register a vehicle with a steam engine anyway
> (complexity of the necesary safety systems? Emissions?).
> Speed ratio of a steam vs electric may be an issue - high speed of a
> turbine or low speed of a reciprocating steam engine.
> Weight of a steam system added to the weight of an EV may be problematic?
> Cost of building/buying a steam system may be prohibitive.
>
> What else? Maybe a series hybrid, using a steam engine driving a
generator
> to supplement the battery as a range extender?
>
> We've discussed capstone turbines before, and unless you need the heat
the
> cost/electricity ratio is a bit off the planet. That may be the case with
a
> steam engine, too.
>
> So, Comments?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt
p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
bemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev