[daniel1948]

Originally Posted by Lordwacky

Do the EV community proud and smoke those tires whenever a punk kid pulls up next to you with his souped up rice rocket.

I have lived in Spokane for 3 1/2 years now, and have yet to see any punk kids driving souped-up rice rockets. Sorry.

I did burn some rubber yesterday, though: I was doing the speed limit on the main thoroughfare between downtown and the Valley when some bozo in a pickup truck pulled out of a parking lot in front of a stopped bus, and right into my path blind. I hit the brakes, stopped literally two feet from the truck as it zoomed in front of me, and watched the black cloud rise up from under my car amid the smell of rubber. Spokane drivers are usually very decent. This guy was probably from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Bowser330

+1 please report back with your performance/range results!!!

Maybe even invest in a gtech timer to actually get some documented performance results...

I think the combination of a Warp-11 and 2000Amps (Your batteries can take pulses of 10C) will make for a tire shredder for sure, the thing that helps you though is the wider rear tires of a 911 and an LSD which should both help to stick the power down to the road...

Maybe you could even invest in additional batteries packs and increase the voltage?? The Warps were just increased in their voltage rating to 192V i believe...that will help push out the rpm and power curve favorably...

What's an LSD? (I presume you're not referring to Timothy Leary's drug of choice. )

The only way to fit more batteries in this car would be to remove the back seats. I'd be willing to give up the seats, but it would be an enormous job. And a bundle of money for the batteries.

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Dan when you get a chance do you think you could post a thread to document your interactions with your vendor in the EV dealer section of the forum, as JRP3 had mentioned.

I will do that, but not until "the fat lady sings." This tale is only half done. I am going to give Paul a fair chance to make good before I trash him. He has a 20-year reputation for doing good work. Something (or a cascade of things) went wrong here. If he refuses to make good, I will tell the whole tale. And if he does make good, as I still hope he will do, I will tell the tale of someone who made some mistakes but stood by his promises.

I don't yet know which it will be.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by daniel1948

I have lived in Spokane for 3 1/2 years now, and have yet to see any punk kids driving souped-up rice rockets. Sorry.

I did burn some rubber yesterday, though: I was doing the speed limit on the main thoroughfare between downtown and the Valley when some bozo in a pickup truck pulled out of a parking lot in front of a stopped bus, and right into my path blind. I hit the brakes, stopped literally two feet from the truck as it zoomed in front of me, and watched the black cloud rise up from under my car amid the smell of rubber. Spokane drivers are usually very decent. This guy was probably from somewhere else.


What's an LSD? (I presume you're not referring to Timothy Leary's drug of choice. )

The only way to fit more batteries in this car would be to remove the back seats. I'd be willing to give up the seats, but it would be an enormous job. And a bundle of money for the batteries.


I will do that, but not until "the fat lady sings." This tale is only half done. I am going to give Paul a fair chance to make good before I trash him. He has a 20-year reputation for doing good work. Something (or a cascade of things) went wrong here. If he refuses to make good, I will tell the whole tale. And if he does make good, as I still hope he will do, I will tell the tale of someone who made some mistakes but stood by his promises.

I don't yet know which it will be.

I guess the incident could have been a lot worse...glad everything was ok...

LSD = Limited Slip Differential, essentially it ensures that both drive wheels are turning together. In cars without LSDs, high torque loads (ahem Warp 11) can break loose one wheel more than the other. the LSD ensures both will break loose together, thus sticking to the ground quicker, creating less lost power... although it will put more strain on your driveline...

I am sure a 911 6 speed is pretty strong, but you may want to look into a clutch upgrade, warp 11 with 1000A @ low rpm is for sure more torque than Porsche 3.4/6 flat six...

I wonder how a 911 C4 (awd) would respond with all that torque surging through all 4 tires?? hmmm....

[daniel1948]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

... you may want to look into a clutch upgrade, warp 11 with 1000A @ low rpm is for sure more torque than Porsche 3.4/6 flat six...

I don't have a clutch. Paul said there is a rubber thingy between the motor and the transmission. I think he said that was supposed to absorb the shock of the motor torque, but I am very vague on that.

Any time my wheels start breaking loose I'll know I'm pressing too hard on the pedal. I want power for merging, but I have no interest in racing.

[JRP3]

Originally Posted by daniel1948

I don't have a clutch. Paul said there is a rubber thingy between the motor and the transmission. I think he said that was supposed to absorb the shock of the motor torque, but I am very vague on that.

Oh no, I hope that's not a lovejoy coupler. They have been known to fail under load from an electric motor and are generally frowned upon in conversions. A clutch less setup should use either solid hub coupling or a coupler using the clutch center hub and springs.

[daniel1948]

Originally Posted by JRP3

Oh no, I hope that's not a lovejoy coupler.

It probably is. I don't actually know. When I have the Zilla installed, I will ask the guy to check, and make it right, if he's willing to do the extra work. At $100/hour shop time, he might be willing, but he's very busy with his own work, so he might limit how much time he's willing to put on my car.

[daniel1948]

UPDATE: I had a long phone conversation with Paul, during which I raised, and we discussed, all my concerns:

1. The shoddy way the A/C condensers & their fans were fastened in front.

He expressed surprise. He said that the straps he used were extremely strong, and are used in race cars, and he could not imagine how they had broken. He insisted that the fans were originally held in place with plastic clips, and that his straps were stronger. He had nothing to say about the fact that the rims or frames of the fans had been cut off.

But he agreed to pay for the work to put all of this right.

2. The loose lug nuts on one wheel and loose transmission mounting, including one bolt not tightened at all.

Again, he was surprised, and said he would strengthen his procedures for checking such things in future.

He agreed to pay for the work of fixing this as well.

3. The missing underbody panels.

Again, he expressed surprise. He wondered if they could have been removed en route, but I said I thought this was vanishingly unlikely, and he agreed to replace them. He said he would either find my panels, if they are still in his shop, or get others used, and ship them to me. I insisted that if he gets used ones, they must be in perfect condition, because my car was impeccably cared for, and anything less would not be acceptable.

4. The controller. Our contract specified a 1,000-amp controller. He substituted a 500-amp Curtis controller when the Logisystems controllers were having problems. I found a guy locally willing to sell me and install a 2K Zilla. I asked Paul to pay for half of that, since it's twice the size of the one we contracted. I also do not believe that a 1,000-amp controller would have given the car the promised performance.

Paul replied that our contract was not for a Zilla, which is a lot more expensive than a Logisystems for the same amperage. He offered instead to either send me a Logisystems 1000-amp controller or send me the money one would cost, in return for the return of the Curtis. I had to agree that our contract was for a 1000-amp controller, not a Zilla, and I accepted his offer to send me the money a Logisystems controller would cost. I'll pay the balance myself for the 2K Zilla, which is a lot more, but a lot better, than what the car would have had under our contract.

5. The contract promised "approx. 125 miles range." I extrapolate 80 miles range to dead empty driving gently, based on my wh used. 125 miles of range would require half again more batteries than I have. Installing these batteries would require removing the back seats, and while I'd be willing to lose the back seats, the job appears daunting. So I asked Paul to refund me half of what I paid him for batteries in compensation for the failure to achieve the promised range.

He replied that this was the first late model (i.e. heavier than 1970's-era) Porsche to ever get LiFePO4 batteries, and was therefore "experimental" and the contract had mentioned only an approximate range, not a promised range. I replied that as the builder, he had made representations to me on both range and acceleration, and that the actual car did not come anywhere close to either. I said that as the builder, he should have known what the car would do, or else told me clearly that he did not really know, because I would not have paid what I did for the car if he had told me that the range would be "something between 80 and 125 miles." I also reminded him here that I had told him very clearly that one of the big reasons I paid extra for a late-model donor car, rather than saving money by selecting an older one, was that I wanted the safety features: air bags, ABS, and stability control. He never told me that I would lose the ABS and stability control in the conversion. I am quite sure that he simply didn't know. But he never told me that he had never conveed a late-model Porsche before. All his prior experience was with older cars. So he was not entirely open with me. And as a result I entered into a project that I would not have, at that price, had I known that there were so many unknowns.

He said that he could not refund me the money I was asking for batteries/range.

The phone call was getting long, both of us had other things to do, and we agreed to end the phone call without having yet resolved the issue of batteries and range. I made it clear that I was not satisfied, but that I was willing to put off further discussion until a later time.

I paid him $36,000 for the battery pack. I asked him for $18,000 back, due to failure to achieve the promised range. I now believe that he charged me far more than the pack was actually worth, but at the time of the contract, I was paying for range, not for a set number of batteries. Therefore I feel he owes me $18,000. He says he does not because we agreed what I'd pay for batteries, and the 125 miles range was an approximation, not a promise. I feel that 80 miles is not "approximately" 125.

So this issue remains unresolved.

All in all, I would describe the conversation as strained but cordial. We ended by agreeing that we share a committment to electric vehicles, and we'd both like to find amicable solutions and remain friends. He agreed to pay for fixing the mechanical issues and we agreed about the controller. Only the battery/range issue remains unresolved.

The Zilla should get put in next month, and I'll report on the results.

Daniel

[JRP3]

Overall that's pretty good news as I was afraid he might not be willing to give you anything. He seems to be pretty reasonable on most points, except the battery pack. I don't remember when the pack was purchased, but the going rate now is around .35 cents per watt hour, which would put your 28.8kwh pack at about $11,000. So it seems he grossly overcharged for the pack and it significantly under performs. Maybe prices were higher when he bought them, and maybe the HiPower cells were more expensive than TS or SE cells, but he still owes you something. The fact that he basically sold a product with no idea how it would perform doesn't say anything good about his business.

[daniel1948]

Originally Posted by JRP3

Overall that's pretty good news as I was afraid he might not be willing to give you anything. He seems to be pretty reasonable on most points, except the battery pack. I don't remember when the pack was purchased, but the going rate now is around .35 cents per watt hour, which would put your 28.8kwh pack at about $11,000. So it seems he grossly overcharged for the pack and it significantly under performs. Maybe prices were higher when he bought them, and maybe the HiPower cells were more expensive than TS or SE cells, but he still owes you something. The fact that he basically sold a product with no idea how it would perform doesn't say anything good about his business.

Richard says his current prices (lower than a year ago when Paul began work on my car) are $2 per ah. The cells are 100 ah @ nominal 3 v so $200 each. That would be 300 wh or 67 cents per wh, but includes the charger with integrated BMS. And Richard says he pays extra to have the cells matched at the factory. Richard also says the HiPower are better than the other brands, but I have no idea.

[DavidDymaxion]

It's good to hear you made some progress. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the success or failure of the conversion company.

I have used zip ties to hold on a brake fluid reservoir, fender liners, brake ducts, an exhaust bracket, etc. I have only had one ever fail, and that was when I foolishly was trying to suspend a 60 lb part with a single zip tie (I should have known better, the zip tie lost its grip before I could get zip tie #2 on). I don't use them in a hot or chafing location or for heavy items. I have even replaced perfectly good bolts with zip ties where the backside was hard to reach.

You should do the coastdown measurements mentioned on http://www.teslamotorsclub.com . There is a chance something is dragging on your car -- to be fair I think you should check with some coastdowns to be sure that is not something that might be eating range. For instance, John Wayland's Blue Meanie is 2500 lbs, but he claims just 160 Whr/mile for it, way better than you have measured so far.

As a practical matter, it is going to be hard to find underbody panels that are in cosmetically perfect shape (or maybe you meant just functionally perfect?). I would definitely want them, though, as they'll help protect the underside and might improve the aero.

The controller thing is very good news, you'll be much happier with a Zilla.

Originally Posted by daniel1948

UPDATE: I had a long phone conversation with Paul, during which I raised, and we discussed, all my concerns:

1. The shoddy way the A/C condensers & their fans were fastened in front.

He expressed surprise. He said that the straps he used were extremely strong, and are used in race cars, and he could not imagine how they had broken. He insisted that the fans were originally held in place with plastic clips, and that his straps were stronger. He had nothing to say about the fact that the rims or frames of the fans had been cut off.

But he agreed to pay for the work to put all of this right.

2. The loose lug nuts on one wheel and loose transmission mounting, including one bolt not tightened at all.

Again, he was surprised, and said he would strengthen his procedures for checking such things in future.

He agreed to pay for the work of fixing this as well.

3. The missing underbody panels.

Again, he expressed surprise. He wondered if they could have been removed en route, but I said I thought this was vanishingly unlikely, and he agreed to replace them. He said he would either find my panels, if they are still in his shop, or get others used, and ship them to me. I insisted that if he gets used ones, they must be in perfect condition, because my car was impeccably cared for, and anything less would not be acceptable.

4. The controller. Our contract specified a 1,000-amp controller. He substituted a 500-amp Curtis controller when the Logisystems controllers were having problems. I found a guy locally willing to sell me and install a 2K Zilla. I asked Paul to pay for half of that, since it's twice the size of the one we contracted. I also do not believe that a 1,000-amp controller would have given the car the promised performance.

Paul replied that our contract was not for a Zilla, which is a lot more expensive than a Logisystems for the same amperage. He offered instead to either send me a Logisystems 1000-amp controller or send me the money one would cost, in return for the return of the Curtis. I had to agree that our contract was for a 1000-amp controller, not a Zilla, and I accepted his offer to send me the money a Logisystems controller would cost. I'll pay the balance myself for the 2K Zilla, which is a lot more, but a lot better, than what the car would have had under our contract.

5. The contract promised "approx. 125 miles range." I extrapolate 80 miles range to dead empty driving gently, based on my wh used. 125 miles of range would require half again more batteries than I have. Installing these batteries would require removing the back seats, and while I'd be willing to lose the back seats, the job appears daunting. So I asked Paul to refund me half of what I paid him for batteries in compensation for the failure to achieve the promised range.

He replied that this was the first late model (i.e. heavier than 1970's-era) Porsche to ever get LiFePO4 batteries, and was therefore "experimental" and the contract had mentioned only an approximate range, not a promised range. I replied that as the builder, he had made representations to me on both range and acceleration, and that the actual car did not come anywhere close to either. I said that as the builder, he should have known what the car would do, or else told me clearly that he did not really know, because I would not have paid what I did for the car if he had told me that the range would be "something between 80 and 125 miles." I also reminded him here that I had told him very clearly that one of the big reasons I paid extra for a late-model donor car, rather than saving money by selecting an older one, was that I wanted the safety features: air bags, ABS, and stability control. He never told me that I would lose the ABS and stability control in the conversion. I am quite sure that he simply didn't know. But he never told me that he had never conveed a late-model Porsche before. All his prior experience was with older cars. So he was not entirely open with me. And as a result I entered into a project that I would not have, at that price, had I known that there were so many unknowns.

He said that he could not refund me the money I was asking for batteries/range.

The phone call was getting long, both of us had other things to do, and we agreed to end the phone call without having yet resolved the issue of batteries and range. I made it clear that I was not satisfied, but that I was willing to put off further discussion until a later time.

I paid him $36,000 for the battery pack. I asked him for $18,000 back, due to failure to achieve the promised range. I now believe that he charged me far more than the pack was actually worth, but at the time of the contract, I was paying for range, not for a set number of batteries. Therefore I feel he owes me $18,000. He says he does not because we agreed what I'd pay for batteries, and the 125 miles range was an approximation, not a promise. I feel that 80 miles is not "approximately" 125.

So this issue remains unresolved.

All in all, I would describe the conversation as strained but cordial. We ended by agreeing that we share a committment to electric vehicles, and we'd both like to find amicable solutions and remain friends. He agreed to pay for fixing the mechanical issues and we agreed about the controller. Only the battery/range issue remains unresolved.

The Zilla should get put in next month, and I'll report on the results.

Daniel

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

It's good to hear you made some progress. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the success or failure of the conversion company.

I have used zip ties to hold on a brake fluid reservoir, fender liners, brake ducts, an exhaust bracket, etc. I have only had one ever fail, and that was when I foolishly was trying to suspend a 60 lb part with a single zip tie (I should have known better, the zip tie lost its grip before I could get zip tie #2 on). I don't use them in a hot or chafing location or for heavy items. I have even replaced perfectly good bolts with zip ties where the backside was hard to reach.

You should do the coastdown measurements mentioned on http://www.teslamotorsclub.com . There is a chance something is dragging on your car -- to be fair I think you should check with some coastdowns to be sure that is not something that might be eating range. For instance, John Wayland's Blue Meanie is 2500 lbs, but he claims just 160 Whr/mile for it, way better than you have measured so far.

As a practical matter, it is going to be hard to find underbody panels that are in cosmetically perfect shape (or maybe you meant just functionally perfect?). I would definitely want them, though, as they'll help protect the underside and might improve the aero.

The controller thing is very good news, you'll be much happier with a Zilla.

David, please help me understand the 160wh/mile...what driving speed are you using?

Per the plasmaboyracing website the Blue Meaning claims 25-30 miles on the 8kw pack, that equals 267-320wh/mile...that sounds a bit more conventional to DC type conversions...However the lightweight blue meanie is at least several hundred pounds lighter than Porsche..But which is more aerodynamic?