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  #61  
Old 09-30-2011, 12:24 PM
steven4601 steven4601 is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Just read the blog. That picture made me chuckle :-)
Hope the wattage per mile goal will be reached. Id love to hear how the optimum magnetisation current is chosen. Road-testing and trying various magnetisation currents to obtain lowest watt/mile?

//Steven
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  #62  
Old 10-01-2011, 12:12 AM
gor gor is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

congratulations with starting this build, John.
thanks for lots of info here and in your blog


numbers looks good - real challenge is to prove it in real life, and i have no doubts - you can
------------------
target converted weight - 2850lbs [1292.7kg]+driver 70= 1363kg

cd=0.25; frontal area 1.9m2
roll.res.c=0.007
drivetrain effy: contr.(inverter) motor,trany -85%

at 60 mph power required:
air drag - 5.6kw
roll.res - 2.5kw
dr.tr.eff.losses: 85%- 1.4kw ( 2kw-80%)
total power required = 9.6 kw

71.5kWh. /9.6kwat60mph=7.45hx60=447mi

71.5kWh. /09kw at60=7.9hx60=477mi
71.5kWh. /10kw at60=7.2hx60=420mi
71.5kWh. /11kw at60=6.5hx60=390mi
71.5kWh. /13kw at60=5.5hx60=330mi
71.5kWh. /15kw at60=4.7hx60=286mi

accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw

------------------

thanks again for shearing details and for good info, John! please keep us updated on details and testing
i believe 400 mile, 8-hour trip ahead of us - soon : )
good luck

Last edited by gor; 10-01-2011 at 12:33 AM.
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  #63  
Old 10-01-2011, 05:10 AM
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IamIan IamIan is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by gor View Post
accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw
Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?
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  #64  
Old 10-01-2011, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

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Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?
for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw

Last edited by gor; 10-01-2011 at 10:44 AM.
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  #65  
Old 10-01-2011, 10:59 AM
gor gor is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

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Originally Posted by JRP3 View Post



yes, that's obviously would work for sneaking in drive-in movie

... JW looks taller in real life ...

Last edited by gor; 10-01-2011 at 11:11 AM.
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  #66  
Old 10-02-2011, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by gor View Post
for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw
My bad... I misunderstood your post then ... it read to me like you were posting your estimate for his conversions acceleration was only going to be 0-60 in 30 seconds.

I don't have a efficiency map of the controller and motor Wayland is using... So, Maybe I missed something else then as well ???

I thought most motor controllers and such were more efficient closer to full power ... and the high power rated batteries he is using should have very small Peukert k values for battery loads... and the longest range would come from operating the whole system at it's peak efficiency points as much as possible.

For Wayland's setup ... from what I read ~112kw.
19.2kw is less than 18% Load

18% load is the system peak efficiency point? ... that just seems to me to be an odd / weird point for peak efficiency of this system... so I guess I missed something else??
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  #67  
Old 10-02-2011, 11:36 AM
gor gor is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed
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  #68  
Old 10-02-2011, 05:28 PM
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IamIan IamIan is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by gor View Post
i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine
fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gor View Post
i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed
I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.

Quote:
The challenge is simple and straight forward travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.
Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:
  • no net change in OEM Aerodynamics
  • With 0 MPH winds constant
  • @55 MPH steady
  • @60 degrees F constant
  • @14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
  • 0% Relative Humidity
  • the estimated final weight ~2,850
  • Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
  • no slope up or down.
  • 0.007 Crr Constant
  • 71.5kwh usable battery output.
  • 100% DoD
  • Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
  • final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.


He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.
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  #69  
Old 10-04-2011, 07:12 PM
MN Driver MN Driver is offline
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic as I 20kwh in mine would yield 125 miles on a perfect day but I could probably figure 100 miles(80% max) fairly safely on a fairweather day on the highway and be fine if the right care is taken. I'm really oversizing for more voltage to allow for better power, longer useful battery life, and better cold weather performance with less heating but I'll take the range. There is a surprising amount of space in the back where that aluminum battery box is, where the fuel pipes and fuel pump are, where all of the air cooled ducting, and IMA electronics sit to where I don't even think I'd need to put any under the car where the gas tank would be removed from for modest range. 71.5kwh will be a challenge as he said it would definitely be easier with the cells he is using versus what most of us use and can afford.

Good luck John!
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  #70  
Old 10-05-2011, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

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Originally Posted by MN Driver View Post
I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic
I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.
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