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EVDL List · #1 10-28-2011, 06:26 PM

Hmmm, not so sure about that. Let us say that the battery provides an
average of 5 KWH/day to the grid -- that is 1825 KWH/year. Now batteries
are warranted for 100,000 miles, so if we assume 4 miles/KWH, that comes to
25,000 KWHs for the useful life of the battery.

In 5 years that comes to 9125 KWHs to the grid, so that leaves 15,875 KWHs
for the battery, Assuming 25,000/8 = 3125 KWHs/year driving, that means you
can drive 5 years, not 8, for the useful life of your battery.

I'm not sure how much battery storage is worth, but electricity costs 11.5
cents/KWH nationally on the average. Assuming storage is worth 20
cents/KWH, that yields $1825 over 5 years, If the battery costs $9000, that
is $1125/year over 8 years, or $3375 over 3 years, so the economics don't
look very good. So unless the storage value is much higher or the cost of
the battery is much less, then V2G does not look very economical right now.

However, once the battery has outlived its useful automotive life, we have a
battery with 70-80% of its capacity left which is practically free, and
should have a very long life in a vibration free, temperature controlled
environment in which the charging and discharging rates are way less than in
a car. This looks to be an outstanding value that would last for many
years.

-- Larry Gales

[quote] AMPhibian <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> The small amount of short term energy drawn from any single vehicle should
> in
> no way affect cycle life of the pack. I see no mileage, maintenance, wear,
> or tear that needs to be reimbursed. Occasional shallow cycling of the
> pack
> should not be an issue.
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > On 10/28/2011 12:45 PM, Ken Fry wrote:
> >> When we have a charging station for every car at work and batteries with
> >> lives of 10,000 cycles, then this will make more sense.
> >
> > And, the utilities have to be willing to *pay* for using our EV
> batteries.
> >
> > Right now, it's as if they want to borrow your car. Sure, they'll put a
> > $1 worth of fuel back in, but aren't paying you anything for the
> > mileage, maintenance, wear, and tear.
> >
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
> Cohen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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> > |
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>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/V2G-another-few-steps-closer-tp3948501p3949213.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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--
Larry Gales
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EVDL List · #2 10-29-2011, 04:19 AM

WHat?! 5kW/day?! I think we are talking more like - on average -
0.05 kW/day and probably not even once a week.

MW

[quote] Larry Gales wrote:

> Hmmm, not so sure about that. Let us say that the battery provides an
> average of 5 KWH/day to the grid -- that is 1825 KWH/year. Now
> batteries
> are warranted for 100,000 miles, so if we assume 4 miles/KWH, that
> comes to
> 25,000 KWHs for the useful life of the battery.
>
> In 5 years that comes to 9125 KWHs to the grid, so that leaves
> 15,875 KWHs
> for the battery, Assuming 25,000/8 = 3125 KWHs/year driving, that
> means you
> can drive 5 years, not 8, for the useful life of your battery.
>
> I'm not sure how much battery storage is worth, but electricity
> costs 11.5
> cents/KWH nationally on the average. Assuming storage is worth 20
> cents/KWH, that yields $1825 over 5 years, If the battery costs
> $9000, that
> is $1125/year over 8 years, or $3375 over 3 years, so the economics
> don't
> look very good. So unless the storage value is much higher or the
> cost of
> the battery is much less, then V2G does not look very economical
> right now.
>
> However, once the battery has outlived its useful automotive life,
> we have a
> battery with 70-80% of its capacity left which is practically free,
> and
> should have a very long life in a vibration free, temperature
> controlled
> environment in which the charging and discharging rates are way less
> than in
> a car. This looks to be an outstanding value that would last for many
> years.
>
> -- Larry Gales
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 2:09 PM, AMPhibian <xxx@xxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
>> The small amount of short term energy drawn from any single vehicle
>> should
>> in
>> no way affect cycle life of the pack. I see no mileage,
>> maintenance, wear,
>> or tear that needs to be reimbursed. Occasional shallow cycling of
>> the
>> pack
>> should not be an issue.
>>
>>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2011 12:45 PM, Ken Fry wrote:
>>>> When we have a charging station for every car at work and
>>>> batteries with
>>>> lives of 10,000 cycles, then this will make more sense.
>>>
>>> And, the utilities have to be willing to *pay* for using our EV
>> batteries.
>>>
>>> Right now, it's as if they want to borrow your car. Sure, they'll
>>> put a
>>> $1 worth of fuel back in, but aren't paying you anything for the
>>> mileage, maintenance, wear, and tear.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring

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EVDL List · #3 10-29-2011, 04:36 AM

Hi Martin,
It probably depends how long a typical power shave
action should last and the capability (max power) of
the V2G interface.
My EV had a 3-phase 80A 208V connection, so that is
almost 30kW (3x 120V x 80A) which means that delivering
max power for 10 minutes will already transfer 5kWh...
(to be sure, my EV could cook batteries!)
Indeed I expect that it will not always be so much nor
happen every day, but with an increasing nr of EVs - and
in the coming years the EV population will certainly
grow fast - there is an enormous opportunity to shift
or shave peak loads, allowing large deferred or unnecessary
investments by power companies, in other words: they can trade
upgrades to peak power levels for healthy pay towards
peak shaving appliances, whether on wheels or not.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 3:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] V2G another few steps closer ??

WHat?! 5kW/day?! I think we are talking more like - on average -
0.05 kW/day and probably not even once a week.

MW

[quote] Larry Gales wrote:

> Hmmm, not so sure about that. Let us say that the battery provides an

> average of 5 KWH/day to the grid -- that is 1825 KWH/year. Now
> batteries are warranted for 100,000 miles, so if we assume 4
> miles/KWH, that comes to 25,000 KWHs for the useful life of the
> battery.
>
> In 5 years that comes to 9125 KWHs to the grid, so that leaves
> 15,875 KWHs
> for the battery, Assuming 25,000/8 = 3125 KWHs/year driving, that
> means you can drive 5 years, not 8, for the useful life of your
> battery.
>
> I'm not sure how much battery storage is worth, but electricity
> costs 11.5
> cents/KWH nationally on the average. Assuming storage is worth 20
> cents/KWH, that yields $1825 over 5 years, If the battery costs $9000,

> that is $1125/year over 8 years, or $3375 over 3 years, so the
> economics don't look very good. So unless the storage value is much
> higher or the cost of the battery is much less, then V2G does not look

> very economical right now.
>
> However, once the battery has outlived its useful automotive life, we
> have a battery with 70-80% of its capacity left which is practically
> free, and should have a very long life in a vibration free,
> temperature controlled environment in which the charging and
> discharging rates are way less than in a car. This looks to be an
> outstanding value that would last for many years.
>
> -- Larry Gales
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 2:09 PM, AMPhibian <xxx@xxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
>> The small amount of short term energy drawn from any single vehicle
>> should in no way affect cycle life of the pack. I see no mileage,
>> maintenance, wear, or tear that needs to be reimbursed. Occasional
>> shallow cycling of the pack should not be an issue.
>>
>>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2011 12:45 PM, Ken Fry wrote:
>>>> When we have a charging station for every car at work and batteries

>>>> with lives of 10,000 cycles, then this will make more sense.
>>>
>>> And, the utilities have to be willing to *pay* for using our EV
>> batteries.
>>>
>>> Right now, it's as if they want to borrow your car. Sure, they'll
>>> put a
>>> $1 worth of fuel back in, but aren't paying you anything for the
>>> mileage, maintenance, wear, and tear.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring

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EVDL List · #4 10-29-2011, 04:57 AM

Thanks for the link to the Scientific American blog.

--
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EVDL List · #5 10-29-2011, 06:45 AM

Exactly this. We are not talking about supporting a grid that's on the
fringe of destruction on a daily basis, we are talking about an occasional
small draw from a vehicle's pack. If you really don't want to be involved
in the program, don't plug in during peak hours, or tell your vehicle not to
allow it.
We all want widespread EV adoption, if it happens it will eventually strain
the grid in some areas. I think we should be willing to help support that
grid when possible. The grid you save may be your own.

[quote]martinwinlow wrote:
>
> WHat?! 5kW/day?! I think we are talking more like - on average -
> 0.05 kW/day and probably not even once a week.
>
> MW
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/V2G-another-few-steps-closer-tp3948501p3950746.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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EVDL List · #6 10-30-2011, 07:16 PM

Here in Colorado Xcel has a slightly better solar program... .except
for repeatedly shutting it down under questionable legal premises, and
fighting against solar at any point they can behind the scenes, while
trumeting how great they are in public. Last year they proposed
charging everyone with a solar system a $50/month minimum charge to
account for their impact on the grid. Never mind that they buy the
Solar Power during peak hours, and we buy their power during off-peak
hours at night... If they do the same sort of pricing for V2G as
for solar, pretending the power is always the same value at any point
during the day, rather than being quite different in price to supply
at some times than other times... then I would not want to be a part
of it. If they are willing to pay the going rate for peak power when
they want to draw from my battery, then I pay them the lower rate for
recharging it later than night... sure. But given their history of
actively fighting against anything remotely past 1960's technology,
it'll probably be a while.

[quote] Lee Hart <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 4:53 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
>> You gave me a great idea. Your smart vehicle could also do a power
>> auction. You might work in a busy downtown that needs power badly
>> midday -- you could set your price to only sell power at a higher
>> rate than what you paid to charge.
>
> Except that almost everywhere, the utility has been granted a monopoly
> on selling power. (They demanded it way back when the grid was being
> installed, to prevent "ruinous competition".) It is illegal to sell
> power in competition with them (even if they don't have any to sell).
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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