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Old 05-01-2012, 03:25 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

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  #2  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:05 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
EVDL List Bot
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
EVDL List is on a distinguished road
Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

You can get a 500 mile range now. All it takes is money. Select a
vehicle that can take a lot of weight like we chose for PbA
conversions. Put in an AC system (or even a high voltage DC system)
and 100 Thundersky or equivalent 500ah cells. That's a 180 kwh pack.
And even larger size cells are available. I bet a 180kwh pack would
get you a 500 mile range. Especially in something like Lee Hart's
Sunrise II, which is being designed to handle a LOT of battery weight.

Dave


[quote] brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Do We Really Need a 500-Mile EV Battery Pack?
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075785_do-we-really-need-500-mile-el=
ectric-car-batteries
> [images&video] Do We Really Need 500-Mile Electric Car Batteries?
> By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield Apr 30 2012
>
> [video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pMFLpiqPAc
> IBM Battery 500: A look inside a lithium-air battery
> Apr 19, 2012 by IBMLabs
>
> In 2009, IBM researchers set out to develop lithium-air battery
> technology capable of powering a family-sized electric car for
> approximately 500 miles (800 km) on a single charge.
>
> Instead of using heavy metal oxides, lithium-air batteries borrow
> oxygen from the air as the vehicle is being driven, creating an
> air-breathing battery. This results in lighter batteries with high
> energy density that extend the car's range from a single charge.
>
> IBM researchers have successfully demonstrated in the lab the
> fundamental chemistry of the charge-and-recharge process for
> lithium-air batteries and, if this bold research project is
> successful, people could see it in cars between 2020 and 2030.
> ]
>
> Back in January, we told you about IBM=92s quest to build a
> rechargeable lithium-air battery that could theoretically let an
> electric car travel 500 miles on a single charge.
>
> Since then, more firms have joined IBM on its Holy Grail adventure,
> leading to a flurry of stories heralding the end to range anxiety
> and a future where charging your car only takes place once a week.
>
> But do we really need a 500-mile electric car battery?
> Or do lithium-air batteries offer something much more useful?
>
> 200, 300 miles, not 500
> As most Americans what they think of as the limit of how far they can
> drive without stopping, and they=92ll say somewhere between 200 and 300
> miles.
>
> That=92s because your average person needs to visit the bathroom after
> 4 hours, especially if they=92ve consumed too many high-caffeine
> road-trip drinks.
>
> At an average speed of 75 mph, on a perfectly clear freeway, that 4
> hours equates to 300 miles.
>
> [image
> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/highway-rest-stop--aaa-foundation-=
for-traffic-safety_100369122_m.jpg
> Highway rest stop - AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety
> ]
>
> Admittedly, rapid charging, currently capable of offering an 70
> percent recharge to cars like the 73-mile EPA-rated 2012 Nissan Leaf
> in 30 minutes, takes longer than going to the bathroom.
>
> After 4 hours however, it=92s highly unlikely that you=92ll immediately
> return to your car after visiting the bathroom. More likely,
> especially if you have kids, will be a 20-30 minute break for food or
> drink.
>
> And that gives you at least 30 minutes to recharge.
>
> Longer range...
> Because lithium-air batteries rely on the chemical reaction between
> the lithium-ions and oxygen in the air, lithium-ion batteries have a
> higher energy density than traditional rechargeable batteries which
> rely on chemical reactions between two stored metals within the
> battery.
>
> In a nutshell, this means that per pound of weight, lithium-air
> batteries can store more energy, which equals longer range.
>
> Remember however: that longer range wouldn=92t be needed for 95 percent
> of all daily driving,
>
> Isn=92t that just extra complexity and cost for nothing?
>
> or better efficiency?
> There=92s a problem however. Weight. The heavier something is, the more
> energy is needed to push it along.
>
> At the moment, lithium-ion battery packs used in modern electric cars
> account for their increased weight when compared with conventional
> gasoline cars.
>
> Take the 2012 Nissan Leaf for example, where the battery pack and its
> control module weigh a massive 660 pounds. And it=92s that weight that
> accounts for the Leaf=92s 73-mile EPA-approved range per charge.
>
> Reduce an electric car=92s weight by using a more energy-dense battery,
> and it will travel much further using the same amount of stored
> energy as an electric car with a less energy-dense battery pack.
>
> Smaller, lighter battery =3D lower cost
>
> [image
> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla_100325170_m.jpg
> Tesla Motors - Model S lithium-ion battery pack
> ]
>
> If rechargeable lithium-air battery packs become commercially viable,
> the reduced physical battery pack size could help reduce the overall
> cost of building and buying an electric car.
>
> And with less weight, it should cost even less to operate an electric
> car with a lithium-air battery compared with a traditional lithium-ion
> battery of a similar energy capacity.
>
> Reduced manufacturing costs and better efficiency on the road should
> then translate to lower sticker prices and faster adoption -- even if
> electric vehicle range remains somewhere between 150 and 200 miles.
>
> You choose
> Ultimately, lithium-air batteries may offer the holy grail of 500-
> mile per charge range. But ask yourself this: Do you really need it?
>
> Or would you rather have a lighter, more agile electric car that
> costs less to run? [=A9 2011 Green Car Reports All Rights Reserved]
> ...
> http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0706_electric_vehicles_battery=
/viewall.html
> (Feb 2009) ... ""Practical" range means as much as 300 miles between
> charges to compete with a tank of gas." ...
> ...
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3Dc9F4ebT55DYC&pg=3DPA63#v=3Donepage&q=

[top]3D%22nsired%22&f


3Dfalse
> Popular Science Feb 1995 "It's the battery, stupid!"
>
>
>
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Nam=
lServlet.jtp?macro=3Dsearch_page&node=3D413529&que ry=3Devln&sort=3Ddate
> All EVLN posts
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-It-s-the-bladder-stupid-tp4600383.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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  #3  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:15 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

Well, I messed up my weight calculations. I don't think even the
Sunrise II can handle 100 500ah cells. A good size truck, possibly.
They would weigh a bit over 3000 pounds. Just takes a little more
money, lol.

Dave

[quote] Dave Davidson <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> You can get a 500 mile range now. All it takes is money. Select a
> vehicle that can take a lot of weight like we chose for PbA
> conversions. Put in an AC system (or even a high voltage DC system)
> and 100 Thundersky or equivalent 500ah cells. That's a 180 kwh pack.
> And even larger size cells are available. I bet a 180kwh pack would
> get you a 500 mile range. Especially in something like Lee Hart's
> Sunrise II, which is being designed to handle a LOT of battery weight.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 5:11 AM, brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>> Do We Really Need a 500-Mile EV Battery Pack?
>>
>> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075785_do-we-really-need-500-mile-e=
lectric-car-batteries
>> [images&video] Do We Really Need 500-Mile Electric Car Batteries?
>> By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield Apr 30 2012
>>
>> [video
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pMFLpiqPAc
>> IBM Battery 500: A look inside a lithium-air battery
>> Apr 19, 2012 by IBMLabs
>>
>> In 2009, IBM researchers set out to develop lithium-air battery
>> technology capable of powering a family-sized electric car for
>> approximately 500 miles (800 km) on a single charge.
>>
>> Instead of using heavy metal oxides, lithium-air batteries borrow
>> oxygen from the air as the vehicle is being driven, creating an
>> air-breathing battery. This results in lighter batteries with high
>> energy density that extend the car's range from a single charge.
>>
>> IBM researchers have successfully demonstrated in the lab the
>> fundamental chemistry of the charge-and-recharge process for
>> lithium-air batteries and, if this bold research project is
>> successful, people could see it in cars between 2020 and 2030.
>> ]
>>
>> Back in January, we told you about IBM=92s quest to build a
>> rechargeable lithium-air battery that could theoretically let an
>> electric car travel 500 miles on a single charge.
>>
>> Since then, more firms have joined IBM on its Holy Grail adventure,
>> leading to a flurry of stories heralding the end to range anxiety
>> and a future where charging your car only takes place once a week.
>>
>> But do we really need a 500-mile electric car battery?
>> Or do lithium-air batteries offer something much more useful?
>>
>> 200, 300 miles, not 500
>> As most Americans what they think of as the limit of how far they can
>> drive without stopping, and they=92ll say somewhere between 200 and 300
>> miles.
>>
>> That=92s because your average person needs to visit the bathroom after
>> 4 hours, especially if they=92ve consumed too many high-caffeine
>> road-trip drinks.
>>
>> At an average speed of 75 mph, on a perfectly clear freeway, that 4
>> hours equates to 300 miles.
>>
>> [image
>> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/highway-rest-stop--aaa-foundation=
-for-traffic-safety_100369122_m.jpg
>> Highway rest stop - AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety
>> ]
>>
>> Admittedly, rapid charging, currently capable of offering an 70
>> percent recharge to cars like the 73-mile EPA-rated 2012 Nissan Leaf
>> in 30 minutes, takes longer than going to the bathroom.
>>
>> After 4 hours however, it=92s highly unlikely that you=92ll immediately
>> return to your car after visiting the bathroom. More likely,
>> especially if you have kids, will be a 20-30 minute break for food or
>> drink.
>>
>> And that gives you at least 30 minutes to recharge.
>>
>> Longer range...
>> Because lithium-air batteries rely on the chemical reaction between
>> the lithium-ions and oxygen in the air, lithium-ion batteries have a
>> higher energy density than traditional rechargeable batteries which
>> rely on chemical reactions between two stored metals within the
>> battery.
>>
>> In a nutshell, this means that per pound of weight, lithium-air
>> batteries can store more energy, which equals longer range.
>>
>> Remember however: that longer range wouldn=92t be needed for 95 percent
>> of all daily driving,
>>
>> Isn=92t that just extra complexity and cost for nothing?
>>
>> or better efficiency?
>> There=92s a problem however. Weight. The heavier something is, the more
>> energy is needed to push it along.
>>
>> At the moment, lithium-ion battery packs used in modern electric cars
>> account for their increased weight when compared with conventional
>> gasoline cars.
>>
>> Take the 2012 Nissan Leaf for example, where the battery pack and its
>> control module weigh a massive 660 pounds. And it=92s that weight that
>> accounts for the Leaf=92s 73-mile EPA-approved range per charge.
>>
>> Reduce an electric car=92s weight by using a more energy-dense battery,
>> and it will travel much further using the same amount of stored
>> energy as an electric car with a less energy-dense battery pack.
>>
>> Smaller, lighter battery =3D lower cost
>>
>> [image
>> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla_100325170_m.jpg
>> Tesla Motors - Model S lithium-ion battery pack
>> ]
>>
>> If rechargeable lithium-air battery packs become commercially viable,
>> the reduced physical battery pack size could help reduce the overall
>> cost of building and buying an electric car.
>>
>> And with less weight, it should cost even less to operate an electric
>> car with a lithium-air battery compared with a traditional lithium-ion
>> battery of a similar energy capacity.
>>
>> Reduced manufacturing costs and better efficiency on the road should
>> then translate to lower sticker prices and faster adoption -- even if
>> electric vehicle range remains somewhere between 150 and 200 miles.
>>
>> You choose
>> Ultimately, lithium-air batteries may offer the holy grail of 500-
>> mile per charge range. But ask yourself this: Do you really need it?
>>
>> Or would you rather have a lighter, more agile electric car that
>> costs less to run? [=A9 2011 Green Car Reports All Rights Reserve=
d]
>> ...
>> http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0706_electric_vehicles_batter=
y/viewall.html
>> (Feb 2009) ... ""Practical" range means as much as 300 miles between
>> charges to compete with a tank of gas." ...
>> ...
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=3Dc9F4ebT55DYC&pg=3DPA63#v=3Donepage&q=

[top]3D%22nsired%22&f


3Dfalse
>> Popular Science Feb 1995 "It's the battery, stupid!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na=
mlServlet.jtp?macro=3Dsearch_page&node=3D413529&qu ery=3Devln&sort=3Ddate
>> All EVLN posts
>>
>> {brucedp.150m.com}
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.41=
3529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-It-s-the-bladder-stupid-tp4600383.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at N=
abble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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  #4  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:45 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

Wasn't that about what the red beastie had?

Z

[quote] Dave Davidson <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> Well, I messed up my weight calculations. I don't think even the
> Sunrise II can handle 100 500ah cells. A good size truck, possibly.
> They would weigh a bit over 3000 pounds. Just takes a little more
> money, lol.
>
> Dave
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Dave Davidson <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > You can get a 500 mile range now. All it takes is money. Select a
> > vehicle that can take a lot of weight like we chose for PbA
> > conversions. Put in an AC system (or even a high voltage DC system)
> > and 100 Thundersky or equivalent 500ah cells. That's a 180 kwh pack.
> > And even larger size cells are available. I bet a 180kwh pack would
> > get you a 500 mile range. Especially in something like Lee Hart's
> > Sunrise II, which is being designed to handle a LOT of battery weight.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 5:11 AM, brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> Do We Really Need a 500-Mile EV Battery Pack?
> >>
> >>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075785_do-we-really-need-500-mile-el=
ectric-car-batteries
> >> [images&video] Do We Really Need 500-Mile Electric Car Batteries?
> >> By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield Apr 30 2012
> >>
> >> [video
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pMFLpiqPAc
> >> IBM Battery 500: A look inside a lithium-air battery
> >> Apr 19, 2012 by IBMLabs
> >>
> >> In 2009, IBM researchers set out to develop lithium-air battery
> >> technology capable of powering a family-sized electric car for
> >> approximately 500 miles (800 km) on a single charge.
> >>
> >> Instead of using heavy metal oxides, lithium-air batteries borrow
> >> oxygen from the air as the vehicle is being driven, creating an
> >> air-breathing battery. This results in lighter batteries with high
> >> energy density that extend the car's range from a single charge.
> >>
> >> IBM researchers have successfully demonstrated in the lab the
> >> fundamental chemistry of the charge-and-recharge process for
> >> lithium-air batteries and, if this bold research project is
> >> successful, people could see it in cars between 2020 and 2030.
> >> ]
> >>
> >> Back in January, we told you about IBM=92s quest to build a
> >> rechargeable lithium-air battery that could theoretically let an
> >> electric car travel 500 miles on a single charge.
> >>
> >> Since then, more firms have joined IBM on its Holy Grail adventure,
> >> leading to a flurry of stories heralding the end to range anxiety
> >> and a future where charging your car only takes place once a week.
> >>
> >> But do we really need a 500-mile electric car battery?
> >> Or do lithium-air batteries offer something much more useful?
> >>
> >> 200, 300 miles, not 500
> >> As most Americans what they think of as the limit of how far they can
> >> drive without stopping, and they=92ll say somewhere between 200 and 300
> >> miles.
> >>
> >> That=92s because your average person needs to visit the bathroom after
> >> 4 hours, especially if they=92ve consumed too many high-caffeine
> >> road-trip drinks.
> >>
> >> At an average speed of 75 mph, on a perfectly clear freeway, that 4
> >> hours equates to 300 miles.
> >>
> >> [image
> >>
> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/highway-rest-stop--aaa-foundation-=
for-traffic-safety_100369122_m.jpg
> >> Highway rest stop - AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety
> >> ]
> >>
> >> Admittedly, rapid charging, currently capable of offering an 70
> >> percent recharge to cars like the 73-mile EPA-rated 2012 Nissan Leaf
> >> in 30 minutes, takes longer than going to the bathroom.
> >>
> >> After 4 hours however, it=92s highly unlikely that you=92ll immediately
> >> return to your car after visiting the bathroom. More likely,
> >> especially if you have kids, will be a 20-30 minute break for food or
> >> drink.
> >>
> >> And that gives you at least 30 minutes to recharge.
> >>
> >> Longer range...
> >> Because lithium-air batteries rely on the chemical reaction between
> >> the lithium-ions and oxygen in the air, lithium-ion batteries have a
> >> higher energy density than traditional rechargeable batteries which
> >> rely on chemical reactions between two stored metals within the
> >> battery.
> >>
> >> In a nutshell, this means that per pound of weight, lithium-air
> >> batteries can store more energy, which equals longer range.
> >>
> >> Remember however: that longer range wouldn=92t be needed for 95 percent
> >> of all daily driving,
> >>
> >> Isn=92t that just extra complexity and cost for nothing?
> >>
> >> or better efficiency?
> >> There=92s a problem however. Weight. The heavier something is, the more
> >> energy is needed to push it along.
> >>
> >> At the moment, lithium-ion battery packs used in modern electric cars
> >> account for their increased weight when compared with conventional
> >> gasoline cars.
> >>
> >> Take the 2012 Nissan Leaf for example, where the battery pack and its
> >> control module weigh a massive 660 pounds. And it=92s that weight that
> >> accounts for the Leaf=92s 73-mile EPA-approved range per charge.
> >>
> >> Reduce an electric car=92s weight by using a more energy-dense battery,
> >> and it will travel much further using the same amount of stored
> >> energy as an electric car with a less energy-dense battery pack.
> >>
> >> Smaller, lighter battery =3D lower cost
> >>
> >> [image
> >> http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla_100325170_m.jpg
> >> Tesla Motors - Model S lithium-ion battery pack
> >> ]
> >>
> >> If rechargeable lithium-air battery packs become commercially viable,
> >> the reduced physical battery pack size could help reduce the overall
> >> cost of building and buying an electric car.
> >>
> >> And with less weight, it should cost even less to operate an electric
> >> car with a lithium-air battery compared with a traditional lithium-ion
> >> battery of a similar energy capacity.
> >>
> >> Reduced manufacturing costs and better efficiency on the road should
> >> then translate to lower sticker prices and faster adoption -- even if
> >> electric vehicle range remains somewhere between 150 and 200 miles.
> >>
> >> You choose
> >> Ultimately, lithium-air batteries may offer the holy grail of 500-
> >> mile per charge range. But ask yourself this: Do you really need it?
> >>
> >> Or would you rather have a lighter, more agile electric car that
> >> costs less to run? [=A9 2011 Green Car Reports All Rights Reserved]
> >> ...
> >>
> http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0706_electric_vehicles_battery=
/viewall.html
> >> (Feb 2009) ... ""Practical" range means as much as 300 miles between
> >> charges to compete with a tank of gas." ...
> >> ...
> >>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3Dc9F4ebT55DYC&pg=3DPA63#v=3Donepage&q=

[top]3D%22nsired%22&f


3Dfalse
> >> Popular Science Feb 1995 "It's the battery, stupid!"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Nam=
lServlet.jtp?macro=3Dsearch_page&node=3D413529&que ry=3Devln&sort=3Ddate
> >> All EVLN posts
> >>
> >> {brucedp.150m.com}
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-It-s-th=
e-bladder-stupid-tp4600383.html
> >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> >> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> >> |
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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  #5  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:56 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

[quote] Dave Davidson wrote:
> You can get a 500 mile range now. All it takes is money. Select a
> vehicle that can take a lot of weight like we chose for PbA
> conversions. Put in an AC system (or even a high voltage DC system)
> and 100 Thundersky or equivalent 500ah cells. That's a 180 kwh pack.
> And even larger size cells are available. I bet a 180kwh pack would
> get you a 500 mile range. Especially in something like Lee Hart's
> Sunrise II, which is being designed to handle a LOT of battery weight.

Some time in the past, I believe I figured that the SRII has a
capacity of about 50 300 ah cells. And that that pack might give a
range or around 300 miles.

100 500ah cells are going to weigh around 4000 pounds. To haul around
that much weight, you need a pretty large vehicle. At least a "3/4
ton" truck. And, you are hit with diminishing returns; the vehicle is
likely to get 500 wh/m. Or worse. Even with the optimist 500 wh/m
guesstimate, you get less than 400 miles.

I'm enamored of Sprinters; I can get near 30mpg of diesel. Does that
indicate ~400 wh/m? And it will haul about 4000 lb. If your pockets
are deep enough, that could get you in the right ball park. With a
~$80k battery.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 42 days 12 hours 29 minutes

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  #6  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:05 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

What a pointless article. Will some people need a 500 mile range? Yes.
Will the rest of us benefit from a 100 mile battery that weighs 50 lbs? Of
course, and someday it will even be affordable.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-It-s-the-bladder-stupid-tp4600383p4601951.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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  #7  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:15 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

[quote]On 1 May 2012 at 17:57, Dave Davidson wrote:

> You can get a 500 mile range now ... Put in ... 100 Thundersky or
> equivalent 500ah cells.

I couldn't quickly find specs on 500ah Thundersky cells, or whatever their
company is called now, but I did find 400ah CALB cells. They're 17.7" x
2.8" x 11.1", or about 582 in^3 per cell. So 100 of them would be 58200
in^3. Each weighs 31.5lb, for a total weight of 3150 lb.

What kind of glider do we need to carry that monstrous battery?

A 2004 Chevrolet S10 pickup's bed measures 55.2" long by 40.3" wide (at the
wheels) by 16.8" high, total 37373 in^3 if we put 'em all in one big box.
Its rated payload (GVWR - curb weight) is 1160lb. Hmm, looks like we're
going to need about 3 of them. ;-)

Let's try something bigger. Since we're talking Chevrolet already, how
about a 2006 Silverado 2500HD?

Now we have a 3734lb payload rating, so we're in pretty good shape to handle
the weight and a couple of passengers too. The bed is 97.6" long x 50" wide
(at wheels) x 19.5" high. That's 95160 in^3. Nailed it!

Curb weight for this behemoth is 4965lb. We can drop - what, maybe 500lb
removing all the greasy bits? (Help me out here, truck guys.)

I think we're going to need some extra grunt to move Lurch here around, so
let's drop in two 9.1" ADC motors at 151lb each, total 302lb. We won't
worry about the controller (controllers?) or other stuff right now.

Add our batteries for a final curb weight of - drum roll - 7917lb.

I can't guess how much energy that would use, so let's see if we can
estimate it from the mpg. I couldn't find an EPA rating for a Silverado
2500, but they list a Silverado 1500 (smaller truck) at 16mpg combined. So
what do you think, maybe 13mpg on gasoline?

A 2012 Nissa Versa gets a combined EPA rating of 30mpg, and I hear that a
Leaf runs about 250wh/mi. So let's guess that a 13mpg vehicle would use
about 30/13*250 = 577 wh/mi.

With our 128kWh battery, that should give us about 222 miles of range. Not
even half way to the 500 mile goal. Dang.

Wait. In 1996 a Solectria Sunrise went 375 miles on one charge in the Tour
de Sol, and another traveled from Boston to New York - 216 miles - at
highway speeds on one charge. And that was with NiMH batteries, not
lithium.

Maybe we need to rethink this strategy. I have a feeling that the lithium
equivalent of a lead sled might not be the best way to accomplish a 500 mile
EV.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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  #8  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

On Tue May 01 15:11:34 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
>Well, I messed up my weight calculations. I don't think even the
>Sunrise II can handle 100 500ah cells. A good size truck, possibly.
>They would weigh a bit over 3000 pounds. Just takes a little more
>money, lol.

Perfect fit for my Electric F-250! Same as the weight of lead in it now.
Anyone want to sponsor a battery pack? :-)


--

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  #9  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: It's the bladder stupid!

On Tue May 01 15:46:00 PDT 2012 xxx@xxx.xxx said:
>
>100 500ah cells are going to weigh around 4000 pounds. To haul around
>that much weight, you need a pretty large vehicle. At least a "3/4
>ton" truck. And, you are hit with diminishing returns; the vehicle is
>likely to get 500 wh/m. Or worse. Even with the optimist 500 wh/m
>guesstimate, you get less than 400 miles.

Yeah, my F250 seems to get almost 1000 wh/m. I haven't been able to find any obvious causes - other than sheer mass. (a bit over 8000 lbs)


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Old 05-02-2012, 11:45 AM
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