[EVDL List]

The AMDFB1-4001 motor in our Chevy S-10 conversion has developed a seriousproblem. Since the installation of themotor in August 2011, the truck has been driven about 300 miles at low andmedium speeds. All seemed fine untilyesterday it suddenly began to lose power and then stopped entirely. After it was towed in I did sometroubleshooting and found that the motor would not turn unloaded with 12vapplied.

I pulledthe headband off and observed that the outer set of brushes (closest to the endof the motor) were all perched up in their holders with the springs pressingagainst their sides (holding them up off the commutator). The inner set of brushes were seatednormally but all showed signs of discoloration where the braided wires meet thecarbon block, and on one of them the wires were burned completely off thecarbon block! That brush's spring isalso damaged from heat.

I seatedthe outer brushes down into their holders with the springs on top and now themotor turned with 12v applied, but it made a lot more noise that before. I rotated the shaft by hand while watchingthe commutator surface - at one point there is a shiny wedge of something thin(insulation sheet) coming out from between two of the metal contactstrips - I believe that's what is making the noise as the outer brushes rideover it.

I'veposted photos of my project on Flickr. The last few photos show the motor damage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxx@xxx.xxx/72157627254806189/

As Imentioned, the overheating seems to be concentrated on the rear brushes.

My guessas to the sequence of events would be:

1. Whiledriving the strange thing (marked in the top brushes photo) comes out frombetween two bars on the commutator.
2. Thenow-irregular surface makes the front brushes bounce up and get stuck withtheir springs on their sides.
3. Therear brushes now have to carry all the current and they overheat until all arestressed and one completely fails.

The motordealer and manufacturer are so far unwilling to accept this sequence of events. They keep coming back to the idea that the motor has been abused or overloaded. They offer to "look at it" - but that involves removing it from the truck and shipping it back to them at my cost (~$150). I asked the dealer for a candid assessment of the chances of getting a warranty repair or replacement and he said it was a crap shoot.



I disagree - what do you think?

This is avery ordinary S10 conversion using components called out in many partslists. The controller is a Curtis1231C. The power source is a set of 24Trojan T-125 6v batteries for 144v total. My simplified schematic is also posted in the Flickr set.

Thedriving has been on both town and country roads at speeds 25-50 MPH. The day that the motor stranded me I'd beendriving 15 minutes at about 30-40 MPH, then stopped at the hardware store forabout ten minutes, then headed back to the office at somewhat higher speed(different road max 50 MPH) for about 10 minutes when it died. I've driven the truck on that same errandroutine at least 6 six or eight times without any issues.

The tiresare the stock P215/75R15 and inflated to the sidewall pressure, so they are 27inches in diameter. The rear-end isthe stock unit with a gear ratio of 3.73. The transmission is the stock manual five-speed "New Venture"NV1500 unit . Gear ratios in the NV1500 are 3.94, 2.37, 1.49, 1.00, and 0.830.An online RPM calculator shows that at the time of the failure the motor wouldhave been turning at 3320 rpm - that seems pretty normal. And the truck was carrying no cargo so therewas no load beyond the weight of the converted vehicle.

Thanksguys for any insights you can provide... if I am doing something wrong, I need to learn how to avoid it in the future. And if I am not, then I've learned that the motor manufacturer's warranty is not worth much.


Steve





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Hi Steve,

I'm sure more better qualified motor people will speak up, but it seems that your commutator has
started to come apart and somewhere the brushes are shorting out... bad news. With only 300 miles on
it I would suspect the fabricator.

One other thing - in looking over your pictures, I see that you have nothing that is holding your 6v
batteries in place, they don't have any straps on them. So with a good bump, they could become
airborne, one of them could flip over and spill acid all over the others or even land upside down on
another and cause some plasma balls. Usually we let John Wayland make the plasma balls... Again the
straps are something your fabricator should have put in place as a safety feature.


----- Original Message -----
From: <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 3:52 PM
Subject: [EVDL] AMD FB1-4001 motor failure


>
> The AMDFB1-4001 motor in our Chevy S-10 conversion has developed a seriousproblem. Since the
> installation of themotor in August 2011, the truck has been driven about 300 miles at low
> andmedium speeds. All seemed fine untilyesterday it suddenly began to lose power and then stopped
> entirely. After it was towed in I did sometroubleshooting and found that the motor would not turn
> unloaded with 12vapplied.
>
> I pulledthe headband off and observed that the outer set of brushes (closest to the endof the
> motor) were all perched up in their holders with the springs pressingagainst their sides (holding
> them up off the commutator). The inner set of brushes were seatednormally but all showed signs of
> discoloration where the braided wires meet thecarbon block, and on one of them the wires were
> burned completely off thecarbon block! That brush's spring isalso damaged from heat.
>
> I seatedthe outer brushes down into their holders with the springs on top and now themotor turned
> with 12v applied, but it made a lot more noise that before. I rotated the shaft by hand while
> watchingthe commutator surface - at one point there is a shiny wedge of something thin(insulation
> sheet) coming out from between two of the metal contactstrips - I believe that's what is making
> the noise as the outer brushes rideover it.
>
> I'veposted photos of my project on Flickr. The last few photos show the motor damage.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxx@xxx.xxx/72157627254806189/
>
> As Imentioned, the overheating seems to be concentrated on the rear brushes.
>
> My guessas to the sequence of events would be:
>
> 1. Whiledriving the strange thing (marked in the top brushes photo) comes out frombetween two bars
> on the commutator.
> 2. Thenow-irregular surface makes the front brushes bounce up and get stuck withtheir springs on
> their sides.
> 3. Therear brushes now have to carry all the current and they overheat until all arestressed and
> one completely fails.
>
> The motordealer and manufacturer are so far unwilling to accept this sequence of events. They
> keep coming back to the idea that the motor has been abused or overloaded. They offer to "look at
> it" - but that involves removing it from the truck and shipping it back to them at my cost
> (~$150). I asked the dealer for a candid assessment of the chances of getting a warranty repair
> or replacement and he said it was a crap shoot.
>
>
>
> I disagree - what do you think?
>
> This is avery ordinary S10 conversion using components called out in many partslists. The
> controller is a Curtis1231C. The power source is a set of 24Trojan T-125 6v batteries for 144v
> total. My simplified schematic is also posted in the Flickr set.
>
> Thedriving has been on both town and country roads at speeds 25-50 MPH. The day that the motor
> stranded me I'd beendriving 15 minutes at about 30-40 MPH, then stopped at the hardware store
> forabout ten minutes, then headed back to the office at somewhat higher speed(different road max
> 50 MPH) for about 10 minutes when it died. I've driven the truck on that same errandroutine at
> least 6 six or eight times without any issues.
>
> The tiresare the stock P215/75R15 and inflated to the sidewall pressure, so they are 27inches in
> diameter. The rear-end isthe stock unit with a gear ratio of 3.73. The transmission is the stock
> manual five-speed "New Venture"NV1500 unit . Gear ratios in the NV1500 are 3.94, 2.37, 1.49, 1.00,
> and 0.830.An online RPM calculator shows that at the time of the failure the motor wouldhave been
> turning at 3320 rpm - that seems pretty normal. And the truck was carrying no cargo so therewas
> no load beyond the weight of the converted vehicle.
>
> Thanksguys for any insights you can provide... if I am doing something wrong, I need to learn how
> to avoid it in the future. And if I am not, then I've learned that the motor manufacturer's
> warranty is not worth much.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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>

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[EVDL List]

Hi Steve,

I'm certainly not an expert, but I have the same motor. My motor shop
(local forklift shop), emphasized the need for brush maintenance mostly to
keep the brushes moving smoothly and pressing against the commutator. They
described it as "tweaking" or "snapping" the brushes to make sure they are
moving smoothly in their holders. They recommended doing this 3-4 times per
year.

If some of your brushes aren't making good contact, that could certainly
cause arcing and electrical overload on the other brushes. I don't know
what the commutator issue is.

If you don't want to ship your motor, a local forklift shop will probably
know how to take it apart, evaluate the issues, and repair it. I don't know
if they could negotiate warranty coverage with the manufacturer or not.
>From your description, I actually wonder if some of your brushes were ever
making correct contact. It sounds like the brush springs weren't properly
pushing on the brushes.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of xxx@xxx.xxx
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 4:52 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] AMD FB1-4001 motor failure
>
>
> The AMDFB1-4001 motor in our Chevy S-10 conversion has developed a
> seriousproblem. Since the installation of themotor in August 2011, the
truck
> has been driven about 300 miles at low andmedium speeds. All seemed fine
> untilyesterday it suddenly began to lose power and then stopped entirely.
> After it was towed in I did sometroubleshooting and found that the motor
> would not turn unloaded with 12vapplied.
>
> I pulledthe headband off and observed that the outer set of brushes
(closest
> to the endof the motor) were all perched up in their holders with the
springs
> pressingagainst their sides (holding them up off the commutator). The
inner
> set of brushes were seatednormally but all showed signs of discoloration
> where the braided wires meet thecarbon block, and on one of them the
> wires were burned completely off thecarbon block! That brush's spring
isalso
> damaged from heat.
>
> I seatedthe outer brushes down into their holders with the springs on top
> and now themotor turned with 12v applied, but it made a lot more noise
that
> before. I rotated the shaft by hand while watchingthe commutator surface
-
> at one point there is a shiny wedge of something thin(insulation sheet)
> coming out from between two of the metal contactstrips - I believe that's
> what is making the noise as the outer brushes rideover it.
>
> I'veposted photos of my project on Flickr. The last few photos show the
> motor damage.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxx@xxx.xxx/72157627254806189/
>
> As Imentioned, the overheating seems to be concentrated on the rear
> brushes.
>
> My guessas to the sequence of events would be:
>
> 1. Whiledriving the strange thing (marked in the top brushes photo) comes
> out frombetween two bars on the commutator.
> 2. Thenow-irregular surface makes the front brushes bounce up and get
> stuck withtheir springs on their sides.
> 3. Therear brushes now have to carry all the current and they overheat
until
> all arestressed and one completely fails.
>
> The motordealer and manufacturer are so far unwilling to accept this
> sequence of events. They keep coming back to the idea that the motor has
> been abused or overloaded. They offer to "look at it" - but that involves
> removing it from the truck and shipping it back to them at my cost
(~$150). I
> asked the dealer for a candid assessment of the chances of getting a
> warranty repair or replacement and he said it was a crap shoot.
>
>
>
> I disagree - what do you think?
>
> This is avery ordinary S10 conversion using components called out in many
> partslists. The controller is a Curtis1231C. The power source is a set
of
> 24Trojan T-125 6v batteries for 144v total. My simplified schematic is
also
> posted in the Flickr set.
>
> Thedriving has been on both town and country roads at speeds 25-50 MPH.
> The day that the motor stranded me I'd beendriving 15 minutes at about 30-
> 40 MPH, then stopped at the hardware store forabout ten minutes, then
> headed back to the office at somewhat higher speed(different road max 50
> MPH) for about 10 minutes when it died. I've driven the truck on that
same
> errandroutine at least 6 six or eight times without any issues.
>
> The tiresare the stock P215/75R15 and inflated to the sidewall pressure,
so
> they are 27inches in diameter. The rear-end isthe stock unit with a gear
ratio
> of 3.73. The transmission is the stock manual five-speed "New
> Venture"NV1500 unit . Gear ratios in the NV1500 are 3.94, 2.37, 1.49,
1.00,
> and 0.830.An online RPM calculator shows that at the time of the failure
the
> motor wouldhave been turning at 3320 rpm - that seems pretty normal. And
> the truck was carrying no cargo so therewas no load beyond the weight of
> the converted vehicle.
>
> Thanksguys for any insights you can provide... if I am doing something
wrong,
> I need to learn how to avoid it in the future. And if I am not, then I've
> learned that the motor manufacturer's warranty is not worth much.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
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[EVDL List]

When you say your brush springs were up, what exactly do you mean?

Can you provide a picture? Were they locked to the brush rigging such as is
done in maintenance to hold them up and out of the way?
Having a lifted commutator segment is not unusual for an overheated
commutator, just driving in 3rd and 4th gear when you should have been in
second could do that on a heavy vehicle such as yours. It sounds like the
insulator between the commutator bars on yours has lifted, or maybe it is
just a bar that lifted. Have you put a dial indicator on the commutator and
rotated it to check for how much the lift is? Having the brush springs not
pushing on the brushes, I have not seen that. It makes me wonder if someone
forgot to put the springs properly back in place.
I suppose if the brushes bounced very violently then maybe the spring could
wedge on the edge of the brush as I think you may be saying. I have not seen
this before, has anyone else seen this effect?

-----
-Otmar-

914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle.
http://evcl.com/914/

The Zilla factory is at:
http://manzanitamicro.com/

Zilla Support is still at:
http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/AMD-FB1-4001-motor-failure-tp4615703p4616771.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[EVDL List]

[quote]Jay wrote:

>it doesn't sound like you are abusing your motor.

Thank you I really appreciate your confirmation. It has been difficult to see how I could have been abusing the motor, and it is reassuring to know that your experience has been good with a very similar setup.

I picked a very common conversion project knowing that I would likely benefit from the experience of those who have gone before, offsetting to some degree my inexperience. And the results have been really good except for the motor failure.

I've disassembled the front of the motor and removed the brushes and holders. The front four brushes (the ones I found cocked up and away from the commutator) have wear marks on their leading edges that are the same shape as the protruding piece of insulation. So clearly they were down on the commutator - how else could they get that shape worn into them? Some guys find it hard to believe, even to the point of claiming I'm making it up, but it is absolutely true - I personally know that all eight brushes were down on the commutator when I installed the motor, then after it failed I found the front four up with the springs pressing on their sides.

I am very disappointed in AMD. Not because their motor developed a problem, but because of their reaction to the problem. Immediately blaming the customer is not a good approach - please wait until there is some evidence one way or the other. The distributor has been better - a more balanced and thoughtful reaction but nothing concrete has come of it. AMD never even followed through on their vague offer to inspect the motor - no RMA number has been provided as promised. I don't think I would take them up on it - but after a month I've really got no results except repeated statements from them that I must have been abusing the motor.

I'm going to clean-up the commutator, and install a new brush holder, springs, and brushes. Maybe I can bring this motor back from the dead.


Steve







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[EVDL List]

[quote]Otmar wrote:

>When you say your brush springs were up, what exactly do you mean?
>Can you provide a picture? Were they locked to the brush rigging
>such as isdone in maintenance to hold them up and out of the way?

That's correct - The brushes were away from the commutator and the springs were pressing on the upper side of the brushes instead of pressing down on their tops. I've now got the motor end dissembled and will take a photo later today of what I am describing.


Steve







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[EVDL List]

I had something similar on my Kostov. I had a high current event at low rpm (I could hear arcing). A comm bar lifted very slightly, just enough to hear it. I ground it down and the motor seemed to run just fine, until I did an all-out run with the car. 1/2 of one of the comm bars was completely missing. Some brushes were sideways, some of the holders bent, and arcing damage. My theory is as the comm bar lifted, it was like a little wall of copper that knocked the brushes about. Once the brush holders were bent, then I think the major arcing occurred. I suppose it is also possible one brush was flipped up, and then all the current went through another brush set instead of sharing the load.


So one thought is to put a dial indicator on the comm and see if maybe any commutator segments lifted also in addition to the raised mica.



________________________________
From: Otmar <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMD FB1-4001 motor failure

... I suppose if the brushes bounced very violently then maybe the spring could
wedge on the edge of the brush as I think you may be saying. I have not seen
this before, has anyone else seen this effect? ...
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[EVDL List]

Here's a photo illustrating the positions I found the brushes in after the motor failure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32025136@N03/7158276530/in/set-72157627254806189



Steve







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[quote]On 7 May 2012 at 15:52, Rush wrote:

> With only 300 miles on it I would suspect the
> fabricator.

Don't you usually hold the brushes up with the springs pressing against the
side when you're fitting the armature? I'm wondering if the factory might
have forgotten to place the brush springs correctly when they assembled the
motor.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Hello Steve,

After you clean the commutator and rotor, it is a good ideal to test the
communtator for shorts between the communtator bars and to ground.

About every ten years I get out my Electric Motor Repair text book by Robert
Rosenberg. Using this guild or there are many on line sites on how to test
out a motor for shorts and grounds.

Sometimes a ohm meter may not find the problem. Before I install a new
motor, I will test it out with a ohm meter and record the readings.

It is normal for the ohms to read over 20 megohms for a new motor. As it is
use for many years it is normal for the ohms reading to read as low as 30 to
50 kohms. If it gets down in this range, it is time to recondition the
motor.

To check for a grounded commutator, where the commutator bars are shorted to
the motor shaft, select the ohm meter to the lowest ohms scale and place one
lead on a communtator bar and clamp one on to the motor shaft.

To check for a open armature winding that is connected to the armature bar,
place the test lead on one bar and the one next to it. Each adjacent are
connected together in series through each loop of winding that goes through
the armature. The ohms reading should be about the same between two
adjacent communator bars. If the ohms reading is lower then normal, then
these two bars are shorted together which may be cause by the mica
insulation paper that is place in each communator groove.

After the ohms test is done. Then use a lamp test which puts a higher
voltage through the communator bar circuits. Sometimes this will break down
a weak spot in the insulation and/or wire that is place in the armature
grooves and communtator.

Visual check the groove insulation to make sure it sticks about 0.25 inch
from the end of the communtator and armature grooves. If not, then the
enamel motor wire could be damage on the sharp groove edges.

If the extension of this mica insulation is even or not enough, then this is
a factory assembly error!

After you do the ohms test, you could do a lamp test. The lamp test is
plugging in a standard plug into a 120 vac receptacle. The black wire which
is circuit breaker back at the panel has also a 10 amp 250 vac fuse, a
switch, a lamp holder for a 120 bulb and then to the test lead that is use
to connect to the communtator bar.

The white neutral wire is directly connected to the other test lead. Clamp
this test lead to the motor shaft and move the black test lead from bar to
bar. If the lamp lights, than you have a grounded communator or armature
winding grounded.

Now instead of doing all of the above, you could take the armature to a
motor shop, and they will do these test for you plus a grower test where the
armature is place into two laminated cores that duplicates the field
windings of a motor. A micro volt meter leads are place on one of the
communtator bars and motor shaft to find any shorted bars or grounds.

According to the photo of your communator, that raise portion looks like the
small strips of banding material that is place in the insulated groove.
First the mica paper is place in the groove, and than strips of tin plate
copper bend in a U is place in. The wire coils and then place inside this
metal banding strip and than folded over the wire coils.

For the armature the mica paper is folded over the banding strips and coils.
A U or V shape mica bar is then press into this groove. Steel wire is then
wrap around the armature in two places to band it in position.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMD FB1-4001 motor failure


>
[quote]> Jay wrote:
>
> >it doesn't sound like you are abusing your motor.
>
> Thank you I really appreciate your confirmation. It has been difficult
> to see how I could have been abusing the motor, and it is reassuring to
> know that your experience has been good with a very similar setup.
>
> I picked a very common conversion project knowing that I would likely
> benefit from the experience of those who have gone before, offsetting to
> some degree my inexperience. And the results have been really good except
> for the motor failure.
>
> I've disassembled the front of the motor and removed the brushes and
> holders. The front four brushes (the ones I found cocked up and away from
> the commutator) have wear marks on their leading edges that are the same
> shape as the protruding piece of insulation. So clearly they were down on
> the commutator - how else could they get that shape worn into them? Some
> guys find it hard to believe, even to the point of claiming I'm making it
> up, but it is absolutely true - I personally know that all eight brushes
> were down on the commutator when I installed the motor, then after it
> failed I found the front four up with the springs pressing on their sides.
>
> I am very disappointed in AMD. Not because their motor developed a
> problem, but because of their reaction to the problem. Immediately
> blaming the customer is not a good approach - please wait until there is
> some evidence one way or the other. The distributor has been better - a
> more balanced and thoughtful reaction but nothing concrete has come of it.
> AMD never even followed through on their vague offer to inspect the
> motor - no RMA number has been provided as promised. I don't think I
> would take them up on it - but after a month I've really got no results
> except repeated statements from them that I must have been abusing the
> motor.
>
> I'm going to clean-up the commutator, and install a new brush holder,
> springs, and brushes. Maybe I can bring this motor back from the dead.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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