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Old 06-27-2012, 04:15 AM
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:26 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:35 AM
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2012, 04:15 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Real-Leaf Experiences ...

This comment is about this quote from below, " While the manufacturers have
not yet mastered a recharging process that makes it about as quick as
filling up with petrol, it is important for charging points to become as
common as petrol pumps. Access to charging points is part of the equation -
"

My reply is this, Last time I looked every outlet in Brittan and Europe
was 240VAC at 20 amps so why bother with J1772, simply plug their version
of level one charging into any outlet for a good recharging experience (So
long as someone else isn't drawing many amps from the same branch
circuit...) I have said before about the states that there are about 5,000
outlets suitable to power the charger in an electric car for every gasoline
retailer in the USA.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles
(863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
xxx@xxx.xxx
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Offering a 12 day class Sept. 10 to 22, 2012
in Central Florida. more info on Web;
WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[quote] brucedp5 <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>
> The Nissan Leaf south London experience
>
> [unformatted]
>
> http://www.totallymotor.co.uk/new-car-news/2012/07/26/the-nissan-leaf-sou=
th-london-experience-test-drive-review
> [image] The Nissan Leaf south London experience
> By Georgia Lewis 26 Jul 2012
>
> [image] The Nissan Leaf seems to make a very good around-town 'motoring'
> proposition. If only it was a little cheaper...
>
> I was behind the wheel of the Nissan Leaf for a few days courtesy of
> Chargemaster, a company that offers, yes, you guessed it, charging
> solutions
> for electric cars. This is the kind of business that will need to expand
> rapidly throughout London and across all of the UK if electric cars are to
> be truly successful here. While the manufacturers have not yet mastered a
> recharging process that makes it about as quick as filling up with petrol,
> it is important for charging points to become as common as petrol pumps.
> Access to charging points is part of the equation - governments, local
> authorities and fuel companies can all do better there - and speeding up
> the
> time it takes to charge up an electric car and extending the range are the
> other parts. That's up to the car manufacturers' to work on and I'm pretty
> sure that's happening every day in R&D labs.
>
> The Chargemaster solution is pretty simple. I was ushered to a car park in
> Kingston and there was the Nissan Leaf parked beside a charging point.
> After
> a quick swipe of the card, a little door opened and I had access to a
> socket
> from which the car could be hooked up to the wonders of electricity. Easy.
> The only bummer is that it takes seven hours from empty to get a full
> charge. As I said, this is the kind of thing the boffins at Nissan and
> elsewhere are looking into. There are also plans afoot at Nissan for using
> Solar Power to charge electric cars, such as the SunPower innovation in t=
he
> US where solar panels are used to generate electricity for home charging
> points.
>
> Charging the Nissan Leaf at home costs around =A32 and the range can be u=
p to
> 109 miles - and I'd believe that too. After buzzing around South London f=
or
> a couple of days in the Leaf, I was actually finding it hard to use too
> much
> charge. This was partly because the stop-start nature of the traffic meant
> I
> wasn't exactly fanging it around town like Fangio. But it was also because
> of the Regenerative Braking system which was constantly giving energy back
> to the car every time I hit the brakes. Which was a lot. Even during the
> short trip from my house to Homebase and Wickes with five sets of lights,=
a
> roundabout where good manners go to die and plenty of stopping, starting
> and
> darting around the masses of buses that all stop at Morden tube station, I
> could watch in marvel at the gauge as the charge levels went up every time
> I
> braked. Although it was generally safer to spend more time watching the
> road. There's some idiots out there! But I digress.
>
> Speaking of idiots, I had my own moronic moment with the sat nav after I
> picked up the car. Naturally, my parents were in the car with me to add to
> the comedy value of it all. Having only been through Kingston once in a
> taxi
> since 1985, I wasn't entirely familiar with the roads so I set the sat-nav
> to get me from the car park to my house. So far so good until I misheard
> the
> sat-nav voice (I really want a Brian Blessed one, that lady voice goes in
> one ear and out the other) and accidentally turned into a pedestrian mall.
> After accidentally scaring a woman who was walking along, minding her own
> business, I finally found a way out of the pedestrian mall unencumbered by
> bollards.
>
> Once I was back on proper roads and heading for home, I was able to get to
> grips with the Leaf. What I've always liked about it is that inside and
> out,
> it just looks like a nice car. A pleasantly designed hatchback with a few
> quirky exterior angles thrown in, a nice, swoopy looking bonnet and
> appealing lights all round. It doesn't go out of its way to scream "kooky,
> new-age electric car!" at you. This is something I think the Citroen C-Ze=
ro
> and Mitsubishi MiEV are both guilty of and it'd be great to see their
> designers not copy the Leaf but to make the next models look like they'll
> blend in with the traffic without being bland. Here is where Nissan's
> designers have got it right.
>
> Inside, the interior is calming neutrals, the steering wheel is nice and
> chunky and the gauges are lovely and clear. While the sat-nav took me to a
> pedestrian mall (OK, that was my brain fade moment...) and guided me back
> to
> my house via a street I'd never use again because of a ridiculously narrow
> traffic calming device (that didn't calm me down one little bit), it was
> very easy to use. The dial for selecting park, reverse and drive looks a
> bit
> like it has mutated from a computer mouse but once you've got the hang of
> it, it's quite fun.
>
> Like all electric cars, that instant torque is lovely and there is
> certainly
> plenty of power to be had. It didn't once feel sluggish and after a while,
> the silence aside, you do forget it's an electric car and it simply becom=
es
> just a car. And that is the Leaf's greatest strength. My father thought t=
he
> car was a bit big but, the narrow traffic calming device aside,
> I didn't mind the chunky size. And I suspect anyone with a family would
> like
> it too. As a bonus, the boot was super-generous and we managed to fill it
> with an assortment of plants for the garden and general odds and ends that
> are not fun to take on public transport. Such as a pitchfork.
>
> Nissan are getting it right on a lot of levels with the Leaf. While I
> wouldn't be too game to try and drive it to my inlaws in the north-east,
> it'd be an ideal car for zipping around London. But the price does need to
> come down from the current =A326,000 after the =A35,000 government grant =
for
> plug-ins. There is talk of the price dropping when the new model comes out
> next year and that'd certainly help pick up sluggish sales - and might
> encourage more people to seriously consider zero-emissions motoring.
> [=A9 2012 SquareDigital Media]
> ...
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-Le=
af-Experiences-td4656475.html
> Limerick=92s Denis 76, drops his Morris Minor for a Leaf EV
>
>
>
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Nam=
lServlet.jtp?macro=3Dsearch_page&node=3D413529&que ry=3Devln&sort=3Ddate
> All EVLN posts, today's stealth-posted topics:
>
> EVent: Free EV-Update-Webinar @2pm EST Thurs 9 Aug 2012
> EVLN: Coda chides automakers to build range confidence into their EVs
> EVLN: The grid's glitch ate my charger ...
> EVLN: How Much Range Is Enough To Kill EV Fears?
> EVLN: Valeo makes your ice a hybrid
> +
> EVLN: Nissan commercial testing NV200 Electric-van in Yokohama.jp
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-Le=
af-Experiences-tp4656899.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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  #5  
Old 08-01-2012, 05:05 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Real-Leaf Experiences ...

Hi Dennis/Cor,

Dennis I absolutely agree with you - for now, why do we need all these horribly expensive EVSEs all over the place when an ordinary socket (ideally with GF protection) will do? If they would save the money and invest instead in real fast charge (50kW+) installations instead we might actually make some progress.

On the issue of sockets, though...

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but here in <Britain>, well England in my case, all modern domestic sockets are rated at 13A supplied by a 32A (maybe 16A but that's a bit old fashioned nowadays) MCB protected, ring-main (ie it starts at the consumer unit (fuse-box), goes to all the sockets on, say, one floor and then returns to the same connection in the fuse-box) circuit. Although most sockets may take 20A, all the plugs are 13A fused, max. There are still LOADS of old fuse-wire based still out there though. Again more modern consumer units are split into 2 (power and lighting) with each protected by one RCB thus if the sockets trip out you can still see where you are going to fix things.

If you want higher power connections for cookers or instantaneous water heating, etc, then you use a dedicated hard-wired connection usually incorporating an isolating switch at 20A or 45A.

The normal domestic main fuse is 80A (though mine is 100A due to my EVing and belief in the medium to long term cost benefits of electrical power over oil or gas) but again there will be many older houses with considerably less. I am sure there are still houses with the old rubber and cloth covered conductors!

For higher powered (industrial, really) sockets you can have 240VACnom at 16A/32A (blue 2 or 3 phase) or 110VACnom 16A (yellow) or 415VACnom 16/32A (red - 2 or 3 phase).

Now, what Johnny-foreigner gets up to I hate to think!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

[quote] Cor van de Water wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
> Standard European outlet is connected to a branch circuit that is typically
> fused at 16A (customer accessible) and between those fuses and the meter
> there is a utility-only accessible fuse of at least 25A by default.
> You can request the utility to upgrade to 35A fuses, so you can have either
> more branch circuits or draw more continuous power, or in case you have
> the need for real power, you install a 3-phase outlet, for example if you have
> an electric range or use power tools that need a lot of power.
> This will supply 400V which consists of 3x 230V. The fusw is default also
> 16A per phase but also there you can upgrade to 25A fuses, which means
> that the max you can draw from a single outlet in a residential setting is
> 3x 5750VA or approx 17kVA.
> Of course it is possible to upgrade further but these are the standard
> tariffs that utilities supply to every home. As you can see it is not that far off
> from the range outlet of 240V 50A which gives you a max 12kVA, only the
> wire sizes are more manageable than the typical 6 gauge wire due to the
> double voltage and 3 phase.
>
> But I use exclusively 120V 12A and manage fine with overnight charging anyway.
> Cor van de Water
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu on behalf of Dennis Miles

> This comment is about this quote from below, " While the manufacturers have
> not yet mastered a recharging process that makes it about as quick as
> filling up with petrol, it is important for charging points to become as
> common as petrol pumps. Access to charging points is part of the equation -
> "
>
> My reply is this, Last time I looked every outlet in Brittan and Europe
> was 240VAC at 20 amps so why bother with J1772, simply plug their version
> of level one charging into any outlet for a good recharging experience (So
> long as someone else isn't drawing many amps from the same branch
> circuit...) I have said before about the states that there are about 5,000
> outlets suitable to power the charger in an electric car for every gasoline
> retailer in the USA.
> Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-01-2012, 07:15 PM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
EVDL List is on a distinguished road
Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Real-Leaf Experiences ...

Hi Martin,

I knew about the 13A per appliance (default) limit
(I have seen many plugs with 13A built-in fuse)
and I meant to include it in what I knew about EU,
but lost the train of thought and sent only the
"mainland" picture (actually mostly my experience
from The Netherlands)

Interesting that a branch circuit is fed *from two sides*
in GB? That is surprising to me and begs the question
whether each of the connects into the service box
is capable of delivering the full 32A, otherwise if
one of the two is interrupted (and the entire circuit
still being fed through the other side of the ring)
then how is the rating affected - or is it only a
matter of reducing wire resistance and increase of
reliability against single wire faults?

BTW, here an interesting read about the different
wall plugs in use throughout the world, including
a list of obsolete ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_socket

I know of the (industrial) 1 or 3 phase IEC-60309
which is commonly used throughout Europe with either
3 or 5 pin configuration and the color of the plug
and socket indicating the voltage.
3-pin is 2 power + Earth (one power pin is neutral)
5-pin is 3 phase + Neutral + Earth.
Yellow is for 120V, blue 230V and red 400V.

I have seen these plugs and cords on building sites
and other industrial applications for many years,
but more recently I have also found them in India
where they are used for power distribution on stage
and other public places.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 4:00 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Real-Leaf Experiences ...

Hi Dennis/Cor,

Dennis I absolutely agree with you - for now, why do we need all these
horribly expensive EVSEs all over the place when an ordinary socket
(ideally with GF protection) will do? If they would save the money and
invest instead in real fast charge (50kW+) installations instead we
might actually make some progress.

On the issue of sockets, though...

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but here in <Britain>, well England
in my case, all modern domestic sockets are rated at 13A supplied by a
32A (maybe 16A but that's a bit old fashioned nowadays) MCB protected,
ring-main (ie it starts at the consumer unit (fuse-box), goes to all the
sockets on, say, one floor and then returns to the same connection in
the fuse-box) circuit. Although most sockets may take 20A, all the
plugs are 13A fused, max. There are still LOADS of old fuse-wire based
still out there though. Again more modern consumer units are split into
2 (power and lighting) with each protected by one RCB thus if the
sockets trip out you can still see where you are going to fix things.

If you want higher power connections for cookers or instantaneous water
heating, etc, then you use a dedicated hard-wired connection usually
incorporating an isolating switch at 20A or 45A.

The normal domestic main fuse is 80A (though mine is 100A due to my
EVing and belief in the medium to long term cost benefits of electrical
power over oil or gas) but again there will be many older houses with
considerably less. I am sure there are still houses with the old rubber
and cloth covered conductors!

For higher powered (industrial, really) sockets you can have 240VACnom
at 16A/32A (blue 2 or 3 phase) or 110VACnom 16A (yellow) or 415VACnom
16/32A (red - 2 or 3 phase).

Now, what Johnny-foreigner gets up to I hate to think!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

[quote] Cor van de Water wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
> Standard European outlet is connected to a branch circuit that is
> typically fused at 16A (customer accessible) and between those fuses
> and the meter there is a utility-only accessible fuse of at least 25A
by default.
> You can request the utility to upgrade to 35A fuses, so you can have
> either more branch circuits or draw more continuous power, or in case
> you have the need for real power, you install a 3-phase outlet, for
> example if you have an electric range or use power tools that need a
lot of power.
> This will supply 400V which consists of 3x 230V. The fusw is default
> also 16A per phase but also there you can upgrade to 25A fuses, which
> means that the max you can draw from a single outlet in a residential
> setting is 3x 5750VA or approx 17kVA.
> Of course it is possible to upgrade further but these are the standard

> tariffs that utilities supply to every home. As you can see it is not
> that far off from the range outlet of 240V 50A which gives you a max
> 12kVA, only the wire sizes are more manageable than the typical 6
> gauge wire due to the double voltage and 3 phase.
>
> But I use exclusively 120V 12A and manage fine with overnight charging
anyway.
> Cor van de Water
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu on behalf of Dennis Miles

> This comment is about this quote from below, " While the manufacturers

> have not yet mastered a recharging process that makes it about as
> quick as filling up with petrol, it is important for charging points
> to become as common as petrol pumps. Access to charging points is part

> of the equation - "
>
> My reply is this, Last time I looked every outlet in Brittan and
Europe
> was 240VAC at 20 amps so why bother with J1772, simply plug their
> version of level one charging into any outlet for a good recharging
> experience (So long as someone else isn't drawing many amps from the
> same branch
> circuit...) I have said before about the states that there are about
> 5,000 outlets suitable to power the charger in an electric car for
> every gasoline retailer in the USA.
> Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-02-2012, 01:55 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
EVDL List Bot
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
EVDL List is on a distinguished road
Default Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Real-Leaf Experiences ...

[quote] Robert Johnston <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 8/1/2012 7:00 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> I knew about the 13A per appliance (default) limit
>> (I have seen many plugs with 13A built-in fuse)
>> and I meant to include it in what I knew about EU,
>> but lost the train of thought and sent only the
>> "mainland" picture (actually mostly my experience
>> from The Netherlands)
>>
>> Interesting that a branch circuit is fed *from two sides*
>> in GB? That is surprising to me and begs the question
>> whether each of the connects into the service box
>> is capable of delivering the full 32A, otherwise if
>> one of the two is interrupted (and the entire circuit
>> still being fed through the other side of the ring)
>> then how is the rating affected - or is it only a
>> matter of reducing wire resistance and increase of
>> reliability against single wire faults?
>
> It started off as a measure to reduce copper usage in houses, due to the
> massive copper shortages directly following World War 2.
>
> The outlets are all fused inside to 13A, and the ring itself is
> typically rated to 32A, with the wire rated to 2/3rds the total (so 20A
> give or take).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
>
>> BTW, here an interesting read about the different
>> wall plugs in use throughout the world, including
>> a list of obsolete ones:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_socket
>>
>> I know of the (industrial) 1 or 3 phase IEC-60309
>> which is commonly used throughout Europe with either
>> 3 or 5 pin configuration and the color of the plug
>> and socket indicating the voltage.
>> 3-pin is 2 power + Earth (one power pin is neutral)
>> 5-pin is 3 phase + Neutral + Earth.
>> Yellow is for 120V, blue 230V and red 400V.
>
> They also vary in size, 16A, 32A, 63A, 125A and 200A all increasing in
> size. In the UK, the 16A size is almost never used (as a standard 3-pin
> plug gets you 13A), and you'll typically find blue 240V 32A and red 415V
> 63A 3-phase connectors. Those connectors aren't connected in a ring
> style, however.

The 16A connectors are a very good idea for outdoor use, being much
safer when wet, and will withstand full rated load (or more) without
overheating and melting - which is unfortunately common when people
use 13A domestic plugs for EV charging. Being on their own radial
circuit, you can be slightly more confident that the industrial plug
will stand up to EV charging.

There aren't really any other appliances that subject 13A plugs to
full load for hours on end, and any wear or bad fit caused by cost
cutting will show up in this application, unfortunately.

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