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  #21  
Old 05-25-2012, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

I don't trust the media any longer. I have a few at work that are totally against electric vehicles but they have no clue. There is one other with a Leaf and one more in my neighbor hood that has a Leaf. I have not meet them yet but I hope to soon. Our Chico EAA Chapter Looks to have finally shut down. Sucks. One other named John that has an old Harley Trike that he converted to electric a few years ago and last year upgraded to GBS Lithium cells. I keep trying to get someone to answer. I'd hold meetings here if I can round some up that would come.

Might even do a few build classes here using the simple VW platform. Easy and lower cost if you already have the vehicle.

Pete

I too think more folks are receptive of the Electric than the media portrays. We do have lots of Hybrid owners and solar panel owners at my place of work.
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  #22  
Old 05-25-2012, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

Whoa! I didnít mean to start an ecological pissing contest. I guess I should have loaded up with smiley faces. It was meant to be humorous.
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  #23  
Old 05-25-2012, 09:26 PM
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Talking Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

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Originally Posted by onegreenev View Post
No, not at all. I compared it to what I HAD before I purchased my Leaf. I went from a Daily Driver SUV to the Leaf. I would never have purchased a Versa. You can only compare to what you already HAVE. Everyone is wrong to compare to some other car.
So when you go to buy a car you don't compare one model against another? That makes no sense. The comparison to what you plan to replace is fine, but surely you would compare total costs of various potential vehicles that meet your mission, right?

"Hmmm... I'm driving a gas guzzler now, how much do I save with Car A vs Car B..."

When you say "you can only compare to what you already have", this is not only wrong, but it makes it seem that you don't want to face up to the reality that EVs do not save money compared to a buying a ICE vehicle of similar capabilities.

Mind you, I have nothing against EVs, I think they are great. I do have a problem with claims that they cost less than comparable ICE vehicles.

Nucleus
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2012, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

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Originally Posted by nucleus View Post
So when you go to buy a car you don't compare one model against another? That makes no sense. The comparison to what you plan to replace is fine, but surely you would compare total costs of various potential vehicles that meet your mission, right?

"Hmmm... I'm driving a gas guzzler now, how much do I save with Car A vs Car B..."

When you say "you can only compare to what you already have", this is not only wrong, but it makes it seem that you don't want to face up to the reality that EVs do not save money compared to a buying a ICE vehicle of similar capabilities.

Mind you, I have nothing against EVs, I think they are great. I do have a problem with claims that they cost less than comparable ICE vehicles.

Nucleus
Actually it makes perfect sense. You see when I purchased my Kia Sportage IT WAS the perfect car for my needs. Fuel mileage, towing ability, hauling ability and so forth. Price of gas was not high and in my opinion quite affordable. So I calculated my purchase on my criteria then decided that the Kia best meet the need and purchased it. When it came time to buy another vehicle I already had a perfectly good vehicle. Why would I compare my next purchase to any other vehicle. There was NO OTHER EV to compare to in my price range. So the LEAF was it or nothing. My own conversion was a dismal little thing when it came to range and quality. It was a great little car mind you but more a toy than anything else. I knew I wanted electric and it fit my criteria perfectly but I did compare it to my current vehicle and it beat that hands down as we no longer needed two SUV's in the family. It became a gas hog and I mostly used it to commute. In my opinion a piss poor commuter economy wise. I did not want another vehicle.

So Yes you MUST compare with what you plan on replacing. Still not many EV's to pick from now is there. You can either buy one or build one but you will spend a good penny building one with the quality and distances and power you need to commute or what ever on a daily basis. If I was only going to have an EV for play I would have stuck with just building one. By the way, I am actually building four more. Maybe even more. VW Bus, VW Roadster, VW Buggy, and a 66 Bug.

There is no comparing gas to electric. I don't do electric because its cheaper to operate than a gasser. By the way. If I did not have solar it would cost me about $2.60 to go 75 miles. Do that with any vehicle. Cost of the car is not part of the equation and yes electric is cheaper in the long run. In the end you will pay less. So you pay the piper now or later. It really does not matter.

So you decide to go gas. For now you have gas at maybe $3.75 per gallon. What will you do when it goes to $8? I know a guy at my work that says he does not give a shit and will pay $10 or $20 bucks per gallon to drive his New Retro Challenger. He sucks up McDonalds for lunch and dinner and spends a fortune on fuel. He only cares about girls and could not give a rats ass about the environment. So are you in that camp or mine?
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2012, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

I forgot to mention. If you have never purchased a vehicle then yes you would compare like vehicles to come up with one you might purchase but in the end you buy it because you actually LIKE it. I could go buy a cheap high mileage vehicle but have it ride like crap. It would not be desirable. If you own a vehicle that is still usable you compare to what you have. If your car is total crap and you need another because its falling apart and you can't or don't think it would be smarter to just fix it then you might compare two other cars and what you currently own. In many cases it is actually cheaper to just rebuild. Most don't so it really comes down to I am tired of my old worn out ride and I don't want to fix it but I am willing to pay more for another new one. It is not out of need for the most part. So you compare to what you have. Is it cooler, faster, good mileage and priced in my range. Remember most folks who purchase a car might think about mileage a tiny bit but in the end they just never crunch the numbers. For a car that gets 20 mpg which is many it would cost $26,000 in fuel cost alone for the first 150,000 miles. That most folks never ever think like that. If they did you would not do that. And it would not matter which of the hundreds of cars to choose from that got 20 mpg. They all would cost that in fuel alone. There may be a few folks who might crunch the numbers but not the masses. How many cars would a car manufacturer sell if they told you it would cost you another $26,000 to feed your choice?

So my Leaf compared to my Kia is a perfect comparison for me.
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  #26  
Old 05-25-2012, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

Quote:
When you say "you can only compare to what you already have", this is not only wrong, but it makes it seem that you don't want to face up to the reality that EVs do not save money compared to a buying a ICE vehicle of similar capabilities.
I chose electric because I want to pollute LESS. I did show you can actually find an ICE that is cheaper to drive over all for the same distance. I choose to not pollute. I chose electric and to power it with full solar.

Beat that?

I already own and have paid for my power for the next 20 plus years. Beat that?
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2012, 03:31 AM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

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Originally Posted by jeremyjs View Post
9/11 didn't happen because we don't worship the same god or they hate our freedom. It happened because we butt into everyone else's business and do some pretty unsavory things to ensure the oil keeps flowing.
WOW ... You hit the nail on the head with that one.
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  #28  
Old 07-02-2012, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

Jump in the way-back machine for a moment and ponder the 1965 large high school with both the new drivers ed class and two chevys, one with three on the tree and one with the new-fangled PowerGlide. The students overwhelmingly preferred the Powerglide model. Now jump in the Deloren for a trip back to the future. Punch in 2014. Given that the progressive high school now has A Chevy Cruise and a Nissan Leaf its a no-brainer as-to which car the students will fight over...............See, it's really very simple once the old money shuts up.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2012, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car

Jason is right (I can hear him gasping in surprise that I would say that... ) that there are other reasons to buy an EV - at least for some people. In fact, purchasing a car is the second most emotional decision for most people - so there is a lot of "not purely logical" in the decision.

Economics is a funny thing to study. The root of economics is that "man has unlimited wants but limited resources." That sounds simple, but tells you nothing about what the typical person considers "valuable" because everyone is different.

On the other hand, there are also an awful lot of people who are just looking at the money / capability perspective. If you approach it like that, the only fair comparison is between two similar-purpose cars. Thus, if you want to compare a Leaf you should certainly include a TDI (to compare efficiency) but should also include a similar gas vehicle such as the Versa.

When you do that, you should also throw in other lifetime costs like repairs. Gas is a tough one - it has been going up in excess of inflation recently but prices today (about $3.25) are almost spot-on what they were in 1972 adjusted for inflation. Ice cars have many systems that may fail or need servicing in 150k miles that EVs do not have, or that are more likely to fail due to heat produced by the engine. EV battery packs will likely need replacing on that Leaf in 150k miles; however unlike gas they are likely to be LESS expensive (or better, or both) in the future than now.

Unfortunately, the sheer complexity of this exercise makes it difficult for your typical Joe Sixpack to think about it in any terms other than sticker price. Sad but true. This is why EVs will have to be better, or at least equal, in terms of price before the hoards will start buying them.
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