help me in design calculation for hybrid car - DIY Electric Car Forums
Go Back  

DIY Electric Car Forums > EV Conversions and Builds > Technical Discussion

Register Blogs FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:15 PM
chipsmore29 chipsmore29 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4
chipsmore29 is on a distinguished road
Default help me in design calculation for hybrid car

Hye everyone....
My project is regarding with hybrid car.can someone show me the calculation and the formula used to proved this value.taking example honda insight:

for engine:

Engine Type: In-Line 4-Cylinder
Displacement (cc): 1339
Horsepower @ rpm (Combined: engine (SAE net) + electric motor): 98 @ 5800
Torque (lb-ft @ rpm, combined engine (SAE net) + electric motor): 123 @ 1000-1700
Bore and Stroke (mm): 73 x 80
Compression Ratio: 10.8 : 1
Valve Train: 8-Valve SOHC i-VTEC®

how do they get the horsepower and torque?what is the formula used?

for electric motor (BLDC motor):

Power (hp @ rpm): 13 @ 1500
Torque (lb-ft @ rpm): 58 @ 1000

how do they get the horsepower and torque?what is the formula used?

additional info:

battery specs:

Output (Volts): 100.8
Rated Capacity: 5.75 Ah

I really stuck here...Please help me.Thank you all
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 08-07-2012, 03:23 AM
PStechPaul's Avatar
PStechPaul PStechPaul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cockeysville, MD 21030
Posts: 2,091
PStechPaul is on a distinguished road
Exclamation Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

The basic equations are:
T(lbft)=HP*5252/RPM

HP=T(lbft)*RPM/5252
So 13HP at 1500 RPM is 45.5 lbft

58 lbft at 1000 RPM is 11HP

These are probably the peak values. Usually an electric motor has a fairly flat torque curve up to maximum RPM and the HP is linear up to that point and then levels off or drops.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-07-2012, 03:57 AM
chipsmore29 chipsmore29 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4
chipsmore29 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

thanks for the reply....but what i mean is how they calculate the value?for example,for motor,stated that power is 13hp at 1500rpm.how do they get the value 13hp at 1500rpm?is there any other value or parameter or other formula before to get it?the formula that i know is like P=IV or P=Tw or T=Fr....correct me if im wrong....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-07-2012, 04:45 AM
PStechPaul's Avatar
PStechPaul PStechPaul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cockeysville, MD 21030
Posts: 2,091
PStechPaul is on a distinguished road
Smile Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

For an electric motor you can get the power from the equation:
P = E * PF * V * I
Where E is efficiency and P is power factor. V is voltage and I is current.

The E and PF are nameplate data determined by design and testing.

If you really need to determine the actual power or torque you need to do a dynamometer test. You can connect a generator to the output shaft and add a resistive load to get the approximate power (if you know the generator efficiency). And you can determine torque by mounting the motor on a set of bearings or rollers and then adding a torque arm and a scale, so a 2 foot arm reading 50 pounds will be 100 lbft torque.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2012, 07:38 PM
chipsmore29 chipsmore29 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4
chipsmore29 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

thanks PStechPaul....im looking for a formula that will give me the hp and torque numbers based on the input....can someone show me the calculation/formula/other factor needed for this?just use the example given above and justify it....can show me the flow of calculation and formula needed including efficiency etc....thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-08-2012, 08:44 AM
TigerNut TigerNut is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 277
TigerNut is on a distinguished road
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipsmore29 View Post
thanks PStechPaul....im looking for a formula that will give me the hp and torque numbers based on the input....can someone show me the calculation/formula/other factor needed for this?just use the example given above and justify it....can show me the flow of calculation and formula needed including efficiency etc....thanks in advance
For an internal combustion engine, there is no simple formula that gives you power and torque based on number of cylinders, displacement, bore/stroke, etcetera. The power and torque curve (not just single values), as a function of RPM, depend on those parameters, but also the cylinder head design, valve size and number, port shape and volume, the camshaft profile, and a bunch of other things. When a manufacturer quotes a power and torque number, this is typically based on actual power and torque measurements that were made on a dynamometer.

Similarly, the power output of an electric motor depend on a great number of design parameters, not just the voltage and current. The torque and speed capabilities of a motor depend on the number of magnetic poles and the number of turns of wire in the poles and armature... and then the power handling depends on the resistance of those wires and the overall size of the motor. You couldn't expect a small motor to put out so much torque that it would twist its output shaft in half.

It sounds like you need to first obtain some grounding in algebra and physics; then do some research on basics of electric motors and internal combustion engines; and THEN you will have a better understanding of how to apply the information Paul tried to give you.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:43 AM
chipsmore29 chipsmore29 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4
chipsmore29 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerNut View Post
For an internal combustion engine, there is no simple formula that gives you power and torque based on number of cylinders, displacement, bore/stroke, etcetera. The power and torque curve (not just single values), as a function of RPM, depend on those parameters, but also the cylinder head design, valve size and number, port shape and volume, the camshaft profile, and a bunch of other things. When a manufacturer quotes a power and torque number, this is typically based on actual power and torque measurements that were made on a dynamometer.

Similarly, the power output of an electric motor depend on a great number of design parameters, not just the voltage and current. The torque and speed capabilities of a motor depend on the number of magnetic poles and the number of turns of wire in the poles and armature... and then the power handling depends on the resistance of those wires and the overall size of the motor. You couldn't expect a small motor to put out so much torque that it would twist its output shaft in half.

It sounds like you need to first obtain some grounding in algebra and physics; then do some research on basics of electric motors and internal combustion engines; and THEN you will have a better understanding of how to apply the information Paul tried to give you.
oic....it seems like i need to study a lot of things to do this project.i just know a little bit of formula which is the general formula of speed,torque,etc....mmmm....i cant find any source from book or internet the complete sample calculation for ice design as well as motor design.do you have any source or sample calculation for these design?can u tell me what is the exact parameter/value/any related things and the formula needed in order to design ice and motor(BLDC)?my mind is really mixed up with a lot of formula and i dont know which formula that i should use....really appreciate ur help...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:50 AM
major's Avatar
major major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,529
major has a spectacular aura aboutmajor has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipsmore29 View Post
i cant find any source from book or internet the complete sample calculation for ice design as well as motor design.do you have any source or sample calculation for these design?can u tell me what is the exact parameter/value/any related things and the formula needed in order to design ice and motor(BLDC)?
This normally requires an engineering degree and about 10 years of experience in the field to comprehend for each the ICE and EM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:56 PM
TigerNut TigerNut is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 277
TigerNut is on a distinguished road
Default Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipsmore29 View Post
oic....it seems like i need to study a lot of things to do this project.i just know a little bit of formula which is the general formula of speed,torque,etc....mmmm....i cant find any source from book or internet the complete sample calculation for ice design as well as motor design.do you have any source or sample calculation for these design?can u tell me what is the exact parameter/value/any related things and the formula needed in order to design ice and motor(BLDC)?my mind is really mixed up with a lot of formula and i dont know which formula that i should use....really appreciate ur help...
A core principle for an electric motor's operation is the Lorentz Force equation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force. Page down to where they talk about force on a current-carrying wire. Pretty much everything else about electric motor design is geometry and mechanics of materials.

For an internal combustion engine, the principal objective is to burn gasoline in the cylinders at or near the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, so that the expanding gas can force the pistons to do work via the connecting rods acting on the crankshaft. The more fuel/air mixture you can burn in a given amount of time (i.e. the higher the cylinder pressure, RPM, and/or displacement), the more power you can make. Everything else is fluid dynamics and mechanics of materials.

That's a pretty glib overview, and intentionally so, but as we've been saying: There is no single, simple formula for motor or internal combustion engine design. First of all, you will need really good applied math background including algebra, geometry and calculus. Secondly, you need to understand the chemistry and physics principles involved; third, as Major says, at least a decade working full-time on engines and/or motors, before you can confidently take a motor or engine design and predict its performance purely based on the internal parameters.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-08-2012, 02:03 PM
PStechPaul's Avatar
PStechPaul PStechPaul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cockeysville, MD 21030
Posts: 2,091
PStechPaul is on a distinguished road
Exclamation Re: help me in design calculation for hybrid car

IMHO the OP is too much concerned about details that are not really directly relevant to a DIY hybrid or EV. A hobbyist with a basic knowledge of physics and electrical principles can design and build an EV with guidance from people with experience on this forum, and from the many books and websites about DIY projects and commercial EV and hybrid design. The DIY resources pretty much provide a step-by-step process to accomplish the goal of using electric power for vehicular propulsion, or for simply augmenting it as a hybrid.

If the goal is designing a hybrid vehicle from the ground up, then it requires an advanced college level understanding of many disciplines, as well as practical experience in design engineering. I would dare say that all commercial hybrids and EVs were developed over several years of intense effort by a team of engineers, technicians, mechanics, and businessmen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Share or Bookmark this

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 
Support DIY Electric Car
Sponsors

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Ad Management by RedTyger