[LiFeBATT_UK]

Hi All,

I have been an electric vehicle enthusiast for several years, working on Scooters and Cycles. Last year I became the UK and Southern Europe distributor for LiFeBATT LiFePO4 battery systems, a dream job really.

Anyway the point of this post is that we are nearly finished building our promotional vehicle. It's been developed in conjunction with Stuart Mills of Mills Extreme Vehicles who designed the chassis and body originally for ICE. I convinced Stuart it would be better as electric and it became my responsibility to develop the drive train, including LiFeBATT power of course.

Here is a link to the build story on my website http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/r2/index.html and I look forward to discussing my project with you all.

Kind regards,

Ian

[SuperChuck_A11]

Nice project I'm jealous.

[LiFeBATT_UK]

Unfortunately the vehicles is 170 miles away and we only get one or two days a month to work on it. When it's road legal in July, we will do lots of video here is a quick clip taken by Stuart last week: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=IBXYV3U2

If you click on the thumbnails they open up much larger. I will try and add more photos too.

Cheers,

Ian

[LiFeBATT_UK]

Top speed isn't much of a consideration but over 100mph if we get the actuator working on 3rd and 4th gear. Range, if driven conservatively around town, I would guess to be about 30 to 35 miles from our 7.2kWh pack, to 100% DOD.

[LiFeBATT_UK]

On this vehicle I am expecting an average energy consumption of approx 250Wh per mile, so to do 50 miles we would need 12.5kWh but I would add a further 10% to be in the safe side, to take into account my heavy right foot, so 14kWh.

Price depends on local import duties and taxes. The global distribution network retail price is the same as that posted on the LiFeBATT.com website, but including local taxes and rate of exchange. In the UK we add 5% for import duty, 17.5% VAT and covert at a rate of USD1.95 to £1.00.

The US cost per kWh is USD2,083. In the UK, with import duty, VAT and ROE, that's approx £1,400 per kWh. You will need to contact your local supplier for an accurate quotation. Details of who your local supplier is can be found here: http://www.lifebatt.com/contactus.html

Each local distributor is the sales team for our factory in Taiwan, in that location. LiFeBATT systems cannot be ordered from the factory in order to save money, when you talk to your local distributor, you are effectively talking to the factory and getting the best price available in your location.
Also, all warranty issues are handled, locally, by the person you purchased your system from.

I hope this clarifies any issues over price and who we are as a business, I realise there is concern about the LiFePO4 market and the quality of cells and systems available. All I can say is let us prove it, we work directly with Phostech, the patent holder, to produce a high quality, high performance and long lived cell.

I'll now get off my 'soap box'.

[LiFeBATT_UK]

Unfortunately your maths is correct.

This is the problem, although we sell to the retail market, the product isn't at a price that is attractive yet to the general 'DIY conversion' public. Our main customers are OEM's and their volumes over the next year or two will bring the price down to a level that the consumer finds attractive.

Our cells only become cost effective, at present, if you will be doing a lot of miles...... Here is a scenario of a recent customer, for example they have a delivery vehicle doing 20,000 miles a year that's approx 75 miles a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, following a predefined route each day.

In a delivery vehicle you are using maybe 500Wh per mile so you need 37.5kWh of energy during the day. But the driver takes half an hour for lunch. We can get an 85 to 90% charge in half an hour so the battery pack is only 20kWh and the delivery vehicle owner has a fast charger stationed out on his normal route.

So this is two cycles a day, 260 days a year, 520 cycles per year and with a life expectancy of over 4,000 cycles, that pack will last maybe 7+ years and still be operating, just at reduced capacity. So, US$41,660 for a battery pack that lasts 140,000+ miles, that is cost effective.

Lead Acid is not my thing, but I wonder what is would cost or if it was even possible to do this duty cycle in LA?

[LiFeBATT_UK]

Good quality, properly licensed LiFePO4 is expensive. The development costs are huge. You end up designing not just the cells, but completely new manufacturing processes etc, so the initial capital investment to do all that has to be recouped, over the first few years of sales.

In two or three years time everyone will be able to afford them, but this is new technology. How much did your first PC cost?

All that said I agree it is a lot of money, but keep the faith, the LiFePO4 battery industry will get there eventually.

[Madmac]

You can see why Tesla went with the 18650 Lith Ion cells. Looking at the pack specs for the 12 volt 120 AHr. Total weight is 12.5KG. and cost $2730.00. (info from http://www.lifebatt.com/HPSpacks.html )

12*120 is 1440 watt hours. An individual 18650 cell is 3.6V * 2.4AHr =8.64 watthr (you could use the new 2.6 or 2.7 AHr but cost more).
Number of cells to provide same power is 167. Weight of a 18650 varies between 44 and 46 grams to taking high figure total weight is 167*46 =7.4Kg.

Add another 1 Kg for BMS (likely to be half this) and total weight around 8.5Kg or almost a third lighter. Both packs require battery boxes to install in a car adding more weight.

As to cost the 167 18650 cells would have to be $16.3 to cost the same. 2.4AHr cells can be sourced at around $3 nearly one fifth the price, that does not include the BMS though.

On major advantage is the discharge rate. Standard 18650 cells should not be discharged more than 2C continuous. Most makes will tolerate 5C for short periods without decreasing life. Tesla shows that you can get performance without excessive current draw.

Seems LiFePO4 has some way to go before the price is competitive.

Madmac

[LiFeBATT_UK]

Hi Madmac,

I would agree LiFePO4 has a long way to go to be competitive with this type of cell, however this isn't a like for like comparison. Li-ion and LiFePO4 are worlds apart in terms of performance, lifespan and safety!

However, in a couple of years none of that will matter and LiFePO4 will get there.

Hi Lexus,

The Toshiba cells look very promising but I believe are maybe 3 or 4 years away from being commercial available.

Cheers,

Ian

[Madmac]

" However, in a couple of years none of that will matter and LiFePO4 will get there."

Other technologies will not be standing still. Research papers on a new generation of nano tube based Li-ion show the possible power density increase of up to a factor of 10.

The highest power density will always achieve the largest market as consumer goods like portable PC's and mobile phones drive technology forward.


Currently Li-ion has the advantage in price and power density, LiFePO4 in discharge rate (if needed), How they compare in number of cycles time will tell.


Madmac