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[EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

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#1 ·
Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger capacity
(2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.

I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
(I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness prevent a
lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?

Thank you for your help.

Larry

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#2 ·
I have built a VW Golf and I have built a small Toyota pickup. The
small truck was a much much better conversion platform.
http://www.evalbum.com/3175

The small trucks will handle the weight of the batteries much better
than a small car. The steering and the brakes are also much stronger
for the heavy load it will be packing around.

The Ford Ranger or the S-10 or the Tocoma are all good conversion
platforms. Find one that has good sheet metal and stay away from any
rust buckets and you should be fine. The front engine read drive of
the small trucks is also much easier to work on than the FWD cars.

I would stay the hell away from those cheap ass china made motors and
look for a Netgain instead. The Netgain motor is much stronger than
most.

KJD






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#3 ·
One question:

How big are the other two passengers? I used to own an S-10 extended cab
pickup. The two jump seats were facing each other so the passengers rode
sideways. It could seat 4, but nobody liked sitting in the back; young
tweens, or adults. It was OK for 5-6 year olds. If you're talking about a
larger pickup, the extended cab has regular seats, but you will need a lot
more batteries to get the range in the larger vehicle.

I bought an already completed conversion. (www.evalbum.com/2778). I did
inherit some issues, but for the most part, it has worked out well.

In my case, I had doubts about my ability to follow through with a large
conversion project in a timely manner. I have been able to modify and
update the completed vehicle as smaller projects, because those are more
weekend projects I can fit into my schedule.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Larry Fisher
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:35 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
>
> Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger
capacity
> (2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery
> capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.
>
> I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my
> own (I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness
> prevent a lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Larry
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3903625.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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#4 ·
4 door tracker/sidekick! Truck frame, small size.

Brett

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Larry Fisher
<xxx@xxx.xxx>wrote:

> Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger
> capacity
> (2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
> battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.
>
> I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
> (I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness prevent a
> lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Larry
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-tp3903625p3903625.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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#5 ·
Jay Summet <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> the truck frame with all that lead. It handles and breaks reasonably,
> but feels like I am carrying around a load of gravel all the time.
> Luckily the truck is designed to carry around that extra weight.
>
> My max range is around 30-35 miles unless I really push the batteries to
> death, and even then I doubt I'd make it farther than 40 miles. (In
> practice, I've never driven over 30 miles.) You could do slightly
> better with low rolling resistance tires and some optimizations, but.....
>
> I doubt you can get a 60 mile range for 4 passengers unless you go with
> lithium cells. (or a specialty custom auto designed to hold a lot of
> weight in lead batteries) Either will be expensive. Most cars that are
> converted give up the rear passenger seats for the batteries to get 60
> mile ranges...
>
> It would possibly be the same cost to buy a Leaf and you may get better
> comfort (AC/heat/nav system, all instrumentation integrated) and
> warranty with that option.
>
> That being said, if you buy a used conversion that uses lead acid
> batteries and gets a 30 mile range (for $4,000-$10,000) and then upgrade
> it with a large lithium pack (another $10,000+ ??? WAG....) you could
> get your sixty mile range for a bit less than a new leaf. (approx
> $35-40K - potential tax rebates) but you'd be doing more work.
>
> Jay
>
>
All good points. I'll add a couple more. If buying or converting a truck,
you really want all the lead to be carried low. I personally wouldn't
consider a truck conversion that didn't carry its batteries under the bed,
with a tilt bed for access. And I'd also try to stuff as many under the
hood as possible (maybe 6?) to increase range and help maintain a reasonable
F/R balance. If considering a Ford Ranger, rumor has it the offset
driveshaft eats up valuable battery space under the bed.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
www.evalbum.com/274
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#6 ·
On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries!
Some time I would like to do a S10 to see how much more room it has in the
back for batteries, talk is that the frame rails are wider to make it easier
to fit them in. if u want more batteries I would go with the S10 extended
cab .

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tromley
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Jay Summet <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> the truck frame with all that lead. It handles and breaks reasonably,
> but feels like I am carrying around a load of gravel all the time.
> Luckily the truck is designed to carry around that extra weight.
>
> My max range is around 30-35 miles unless I really push the batteries to
> death, and even then I doubt I'd make it farther than 40 miles. (In
> practice, I've never driven over 30 miles.) You could do slightly
> better with low rolling resistance tires and some optimizations, but.....
>
> I doubt you can get a 60 mile range for 4 passengers unless you go with
> lithium cells. (or a specialty custom auto designed to hold a lot of
> weight in lead batteries) Either will be expensive. Most cars that are
> converted give up the rear passenger seats for the batteries to get 60
> mile ranges...
>
> It would possibly be the same cost to buy a Leaf and you may get better
> comfort (AC/heat/nav system, all instrumentation integrated) and
> warranty with that option.
>
> That being said, if you buy a used conversion that uses lead acid
> batteries and gets a 30 mile range (for $4,000-$10,000) and then upgrade
> it with a large lithium pack (another $10,000+ ??? WAG....) you could
> get your sixty mile range for a bit less than a new leaf. (approx
> $35-40K - potential tax rebates) but you'd be doing more work.
>
> Jay
>
>
All good points. I'll add a couple more. If buying or converting a truck,
you really want all the lead to be carried low. I personally wouldn't
consider a truck conversion that didn't carry its batteries under the bed,
with a tilt bed for access. And I'd also try to stuff as many under the
hood as possible (maybe 6?) to increase range and help maintain a reasonable
F/R balance. If considering a Ford Ranger, rumor has it the offset
driveshaft eats up valuable battery space under the bed.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
www.evalbum.com/274
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#7 ·
several things I'll mention...

- Sit in an extended cab small truck if you haven't. The rear seats are =
mostly decorative, imo.

- 60 mile range is lithium, or a truck full of lead that handles like a dum=
p truck.

- If you are going lithium, then even a small car will have the payload cap=
acity you need.

- someone else's problems could be a big issue! Definitely look at the c=
onversion first if you can. Or at least ask lots of questions and get an=
idea about who did it and how they did it.

- Wilderness EV should not be your benchmark. However,even with the b=
est kit in the world, most of the room for error comes in the integration a=
nd installation anyway. Like running/making cables, wire layout, diagram=
s, component/battery locations etc.

- you can probably buy a converted car for less than the cost of the compon=
ents. Sad, but true.

Personally, I bought an already converted car. Small 4 seater (well, 5 i=
f they are real small) that was originally converted with lead, but later u=
pgraded to 150v 130ah lithium (should have about 60 mile range). It need=
s some work, but the initial build was solid. Good component choices and=
workmanship. I save myself the initial design and build, but still feel=
like I'm getting to know the car intimately by doing a rebuild of most of =
the parts. For *me* it is a good compromise. I wanted to do a diy con=
version, but really don't have the time to do it right. This car is goin=
g to end up taking me about a month to get it back on the road, then will l=
et me tackle small fixer projects down the road as I go. At the rate I w=
ork on it (an hour or two here or there, as I have time) it would probably =
take me a year to complete a build from scratch.

david.


________________________________
From: Larry Fisher <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:34 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger capac=
ity
(2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.

I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
(I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness prevent a
lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?

Thank you for your help.

Larry

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.41352=
9.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-tp3903625p3903625.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabb=
le.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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|
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#8 ·
Larry and All,
Lots of good comments on this thread, but like another one that I
posted about, it has been discussed a lot, so you can check the
archives, or...

My daily driver is an extended cab 2 WD S10, and although I have done
60 miles per charge, it was with a lot of EV driving experience, like
an "egg shell under the go pedal", etc., very near GVWR with 24 T-145
floodies at 144 volts, and 45 to 55 mph speeds. And if you regularly
deep cycle the pack, your cycle life goes down and you cost per mile
goes up. I typically did 30 miles per charge with opportunity charging
at my destinations, and got over 20K miles out of that pack. If you
really need 60 MPC and can't opportunity charge, then lithium-ion
batteries?

Also, as someone else asked, do you have kids? When mine were
teenagers they almost killed each other when they were both forced to
be in those center facing jump seats! Even having one seat up, it was
tight for one adult in the back.

Another thing that I've said before on this list, I liked having two
EV's, one for utility, and one for fun (truck and RX-7), as it can be
hard to do EVerything you want to do with just one.

Finally, as others have commented on and one of the reasons for
converting an S10, you'll want the lead down low under the bed, and
the S10 frame rails are wider than the Ranger, the drive-shaft is
centered (so you can have symmetrical boxes on each side), and both
rear shocks are aft mounted (pre '94 gen one). Finally, I wanted room
in my poly battery boxes for one inch insulation, so I could only get
four floodies on each side of the drive shaft, and eight behind the
rear-end. If you are in a warm climate, convert a regular cab
long-bed, or use battery heaters, you might be able to squeeze more
in.
Hope this helps,
BB
-- =

Suck Amps,
Dave "Battery Boy" Hawkins
Check out our website!
http://bbevs.com/

> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:34:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Larry Fisher
>
> Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger cap=
acity
> (2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
> battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.
>
> I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
> (I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness preven=
t a
> lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Larry

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#9 ·
Thanks all for your time and concern. My daughters are 9 and 11. Most of
the miles will be put on by my wife and daughters as they travel about on
their Unschooling routines about 30 miles a day. I think I am leaning
toward 4 passenger car and if we need to go to Harrisonburg 26 miles away we
will charge up for 4 hours or more on that end before returning. Trying to
get a utility vehicle out of the bargain is asking too much as is 60 mile
range apparently.

I am looking at Le Car and a Solectria Force. The Force is close to home
and a 97 so is the probable choice. Both need batteries so I could go
Lithium but probably out of range costwise.

My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar pv
roof installation providing backup power to the house during outages. This
will entail creating 48v banks within the car to be compatible with solar
system. Then switching quickly back to series for road use. Any advice?

Larry


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#10 ·
On 14 Oct 2011 at 19:56, Larry Fisher wrote:

> The Force is close to home and a 97 so is the probable choice. Both
> need batteries so I could go Lithium but probably out of range
> costwise.

Several Force owners have gone down the lithium road, so you may be able to
get some guidance if that's your objective. More info here :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev/

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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#11 ·
Larry wrote -
> My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar pv
> roof installation providing backup power to the house during outages. This
> will entail creating 48v banks within the car to be compatible with solar
> system. Then switching quickly back to series for road use. Any advice?
>

Hi Larry,

Where do you live? 26 miles from Harrisonburg VA? How many outages have you had in the past couple
years and how long have they lasted?

I ask that because from your words above 'entail creating 48v banks' implies that your going to have
a Battery PV system, and not a grid tie system. I would check with your Local PV guy to see what he
recommends from and efficiency and economics point of view, Grid tie or battery PV?

If your PV system is large enough and you and your family are 'green' enough to produce more
electricity than you use, you may find it advantageous to not have a battery PV system so that you
can basically charge your EV for free and not have the expense and problems associated with a
battery system.

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

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#12 ·
Couple comments:

It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think since
it probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift
uses about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get
fumes and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead
acid (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
likely last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a
small car).

I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car, and
has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. It is
cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
have that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded lead
acid batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a few
days backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the
house, and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.

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#13 ·
The PV solar system will be grid tie in with battery bank backup.
Essentially I want to use the car as the battery bank. I am looking for
independence not just best ROI. I will charge the car from the grid on a
regular basis but want to be able to charge it with solar in a pinch.

I am not sure that we are not headed for some tough times as a country and
as a world community in the years ahead. Hence the look at independence.

We have lived in Tucson and are divesting of rental properties there as we
speak.

Thanks for the input.

Larry

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#14 ·
Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid is
down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use it
unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My understanding is
this is installed as a safety measure so private systems can't be powering
the grid when it is down.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of tomw
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
>
> Couple comments:
>
> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
since it
> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift uses
> about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get fumes
> and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead acid
> (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
likely
> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a small
> car).
>
> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car, and
> has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. It is
> cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
have
> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded lead
acid
> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a few
days
> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the house,
> and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3907960.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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#15 ·
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:15:57 -0400
From: "Jack" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu>
Message-ID: <xxx@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries!
Some time I would like to do a S10 to see how much more room it has in the
back for batteries, talk is that the frame rails are wider to make it easier
to fit them in. if u want more batteries I would go with the S10 extended
cab .

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tromley
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Jay Summet <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> the truck frame with all that lead. It handles and breaks reasonably,
> but feels like I am carrying around a load of gravel all the time.
> Luckily the truck is designed to carry around that extra weight.
>

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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#16 ·
This is addressed by adding a transfer switch. They can be automatic (relay
driven) or manual. Can be inserted between the inverter and the main
service panel, so the inverter disconnects from the panel and connects to a
battery bank (most common), or between the grid and the main service panel
so the complete house circuitry and panel are disconnected from the grid and
connected to the inverter. The latter doesn't do you any good at night of
course, so would also require connection to a battery bank with a charge
regulator.



Mike Nickerson wrote:
>
> Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid is
> down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use it
> unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My understanding is
> this is installed as a safety measure so private systems can't be powering
> the grid when it is down.
>
> Mike
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@.sjsu [mailto:ev-bounces@.sjsu] On
>> Behalf Of tomw
>> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
>> To: ev@.sjsu
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
>>
>> Couple comments:
>>
>> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
> since it
>> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift
>> uses
>> about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get fumes
>> and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead
>> acid
>> (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
> likely
>> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a
>> small
>> car).
>>
>> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car,
>> and
>> has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. It
>> is
>> cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
> have
>> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded lead
> acid
>> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
>> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a few
> days
>> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the
>> house,
>> and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
>> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
>> tp3903625p3907960.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
>> |
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>
> _______________________________________________
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--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-tp3903625p3909561.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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#17 ·
Second what Rush said. Unless your utility does not offer net
metering (check to see if it's real net metering where the meter runs
backwards the same speed it runs forwards... not all states require
this), it's wayyyyyy less hassle to have the solar not have any
batteries at all.... unless it's for backup power... in which case,
yes, batteries, and 48 volts is really the highest voltage of battery
backup grid-tie capable inverters till you get into the 100kW
range....

Z

Rush <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Larry wrote -
>> My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar=
pv
>> roof installation providing backup power to the house during outages. =
This
>> will entail creating 48v banks within the car to be compatible with solar
>> system. Then switching quickly back to series for road use. Any ad=
vice?
>>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Where do you live? 26 miles from Harrisonburg VA? How many outages have y=
ou had in the past couple
> years and how long have they lasted?
>
> I ask that because from your words above 'entail creating 48v banks' impl=
ies that your going to have
> a Battery PV system, and not a grid tie system. I would check with you=
r Local PV guy to see what he
> recommends from and efficiency and economics point of view, Grid tie or b=
attery PV?
>
> If your PV system is large enough and you and your family are 'green' eno=
ugh to produce more
> electricity than you use, you may find it advantageous to not have a batt=
ery PV system so that you
> can basically charge your EV for free and not have the expense and proble=
ms associated with a
> battery system.
>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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#18 ·
Any inverter rated for battery backup use and connecting to the grid
will have this transfer switch built into the inverter. I usually add
one external to it too that can switch the backed up loads to the grid
when I'm servicing the inverter, but under normal operation, the
manual never gets used.

Z

tomw <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> This is addressed by adding a transfer switch. They can be automatic (=
relay
> driven) or manual. Can be inserted between the inverter and the main
> service panel, so the inverter disconnects from the panel and connects to=
a
> battery bank (most common), or between the grid and the main service panel
> so the complete house circuitry and panel are disconnected from the grid =
and
> connected to the inverter. The latter doesn't do you any good at night=
of
> course, so would also require connection to a battery bank with a charge
> regulator.
>
>
>
> Mike Nickerson wrote:
>>
>> Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid =
is
>> down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use =
it
>> unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My understanding=
is
>> this is installed as a safety measure so private systems can't be poweri=
ng
>> the grid when it is down.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ev-bounces@.sjsu [mailto:ev-bounces@.sjsu] On
>>> Behalf Of tomw
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
>>> To: ev@.sjsu
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
>>>
>>> Couple comments:
>>>
>>> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
>> since it
>>> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift
>>> uses
>>> about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get f=
umes
>>> and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead
>>> acid
>>> (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
>> likely
>>> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a
>>> small
>>> car).
>>>
>>> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car,
>>> and
>>> has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. =
It
>>> is
>>> cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
>> have
>>> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded le=
ad
>> acid
>>> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
>>> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a f=
ew
>> days
>>> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the
>>> house,
>>> and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
>>> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
>>> tp3903625p3907960.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
>>> |
>>> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@.sjsu only.
>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-tp3903625p3909561.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> |
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#19 ·
From: Steve Clunn <
Jack is a fine welder and fabricator ,has a nice portable welder ,
Likes working on EV's . Don't know it he would go out side Florida .
The ford ranger he helped with had 26 golf cart batteries and would
pull about 100 amps at 45 to 50 mph , So 45 to 50 miles range at that
speed .



>From: "Jack" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries!
e-----
From: Chris Tromley

> Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> the truck frame with all that lead. It handles and breaks reasonably,
> but feels like I am carrying around a load of gravel all the time.
> Luckily the truck is designed to carry around that extra weight.

At one time this was the best one could do ... and it was good enough
for me for many years
Steve Clunn

Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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#20 ·
If the battery charging part is on the DC side then there is no reason
why that would not still work even while the grid is down, because the
grid must not be backfed, so I understand why a grid-tied system will go
down (I had one for a long time) but there are grid-interactive systems
with a transfer switch in the grid AC path such that the inverter works
in the same way as a backup UPS.


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:12 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid
is down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use
it unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My
understanding is this is installed as a safety measure so private
systems can't be powering the grid when it is down.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of tomw
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
>
> Couple comments:
>
> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
since it
> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift
> uses about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't
> get fumes and need to regularly check water level like you do with
> flooded lead acid (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower
> Ah), and they will
likely
> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a
> small car).
>
> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car,

> and has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per
> day. It is cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time
> charging if you
have
> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded
> lead
acid
> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around

> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a
> few
days
> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the
> house, and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3907960.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at

> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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#21 ·
This is because most grid-tie only inverters are what are called
current source inverters. They can't actually generate any voltage,
they can only supply current to a voltage that they see (and the
software checks to make sure that voltage they see is a perfect
sinewave with the right voltage and frequency, before starting to push
current into it).

Inverters that operate off of batteries are called voltage source
inverters, and can generate their own sinewave. Some of them have the
controls to sync that sinewave with another one from the grid, and
send power back to the grid, and some don't, and will fry if another
voltage source tries to conflict with it's output.

Sometimes you can use a UPS or very clean sinewave voltage source
inverter to trick a current source inverter to turn on, instead of
using a grid signal... but they tend to be pretty picky.

Z

Robert Johnston <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 16/10/2011 12:12 AM, Mike Nickerson wrote:
>> Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid =
is
>> down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use =
it
>> unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My understanding=
is
>> this is installed as a safety measure so private systems can't be poweri=
ng
>> the grid when it is down.
>
> ISTR it being a little more complicated than that. There was an article
> on someone who had a grid-tie system, and it refused to generate at all
> without some power coming in, even with a transfer switch in place. The
> issue was that the inverter relied on the incoming grid power to time
> it's sine wave, so it wasn't trying to short the live line as it came
> in. Without that incoming sine the system refused to produce power. The
> way he "got around" it was to have a small computer UPS running on the
> other side of the transfer switch, so when he switched off of grid
> power, the UPS would provide a "dummy" sine wave for the inverter to
> use. This may just be the system he had, but it's something to consider.
>
> _______________________________________________
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#22 ·
To get back on topic here, I would acknowledge that some very experienced
converters swear by pickups as gliders because (1) the larger lead hauling
capacity improves range; (2) the small cabin makes for easier heating in
winter and cooling in summer; (3) it's easy to keep the batteries outside of
the passenger space.

That said, while I'm sure not everyone agrees, I personally am unlikely to
ever convert or even own most pickups. The main reason is maybe my own
blind spot, and that is that in my view pickups are by nature a painfully
dated design. Their basic layout hasn't really changed much in 50 years.
They still have rigid frame on body construction that increases weight and
doesn't protect passengers well in collisions. They use a dated (and for
EVs inappropriate) front engine/motor layout with a solid live rear axle and
a long, heavy driveshaft that takes up potential battery space. Their
aerodynamics are notorious.

I agree that they have their uses, but they're fundamentally crude, dumb,
inefficient vehicles. I have trouble seeing one as truly appropriate for
the 21st century regardless of whether it's powered by electricity,
gasoline, or Diesel fuel.

Twenty years ago, converting a small car meant you often lost the back seat,
so you had no more seating than most pickups anyway. The batteries were
right behind the passengers in the cabin - not too safe. But with today's
high-specific-energy batteries, we're pretty close to where we can convert a
small car, drop a battery into the space that used to hold the gas tank and
perhaps a few other nooks and crannies, and have an EV with something
approaching useful range.

So, these days I think you can mostly choose your glider based on your
passenger and cargo carrying needs, not on your lead-hauling needs.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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#23 ·
I would also reinforce/add that because they are not "cars" their safety requirements are much less stringent. For example in my 86 Nissan I am likely dead if I roll because as a truck is was not required and does not have any roof support.

If you are looking at a standard cab, trucks are not required to have head rests so the glass/cab acts as your headrest.

I converted and still drive my pickup for the reasons David mentioned (and have no kids)

Sent from my iPhone

"EVDL Administrator" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> To get back on topic here, I would acknowledge that some very experienced
> converters swear by pickups as gliders because (1) the larger lead hauling
> capacity improves range; (2) the small cabin makes for easier heating in
> winter and cooling in summer; (3) it's easy to keep the batteries outside of
> the passenger space.
>
> That said, while I'm sure not everyone agrees, I personally am unlikely to
> ever convert or even own most pickups. The main reason is maybe my own
> blind spot, and that is that in my view pickups are by nature a painfully
> dated design. Their basic layout hasn't really changed much in 50 years.
> They still have rigid frame on body construction that increases weight and
> doesn't protect passengers well in collisions. They use a dated (and for
> EVs inappropriate) front engine/motor layout with a solid live rear axle and
> a long, heavy driveshaft that takes up potential battery space. Their
> aerodynamics are notorious.
>
> I agree that they have their uses, but they're fundamentally crude, dumb,
> inefficient vehicles. I have trouble seeing one as truly appropriate for
> the 21st century regardless of whether it's powered by electricity,
> gasoline, or Diesel fuel.
>
> Twenty years ago, converting a small car meant you often lost the back seat,
> so you had no more seating than most pickups anyway. The batteries were
> right behind the passengers in the cabin - not too safe. But with today's
> high-specific-energy batteries, we're pretty close to where we can convert a
> small car, drop a battery into the space that used to hold the gas tank and
> perhaps a few other nooks and crannies, and have an EV with something
> approaching useful range.
>
> So, these days I think you can mostly choose your glider based on your
> passenger and cargo carrying needs, not on your lead-hauling needs.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
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#24 ·
Robert Johnston wrote:
> There was an article on someone who had a grid-tie system, and it refused to generate at all
> without some power coming in, even with a transfer switch in place.

To get the utilities to "buy in" and allow grid-tie, they demanded
extreme measures to prevent generating power when the grid is down. So,
no approved grid-tie inverter can generate AC without the grid. It is
very difficult to defeat this "feature" (they try to make it impossible).

The usual rationale is to protect linemen. But any lineman who expects
to live to retire already treats all lines a "live" until he had
grounded them anyway.

It also coincidentally protects their monopoly on power generation. It
requires that you pay to connect to the grid, and they meter all your PV
power, so they set the rates and bill you accordingly.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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